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[ZM5]

Myself I'm for the balancing solution of there being multiple zombie types.
Have the current insanely powerful zombies be found in the HFS as some type of Doom-style zombie thats more like a possessed human than an actual zombie (but showing some unnatural features, i.e glowing eyes of various colors, pale skin and hair, runes on the body) and maybe have them be not randomly spawned per-se but give them names of historical figures. Also make them MUCH fewer in number.

Husks/thralls should remain as is.

The weaker zombies should be the ones raised by necros. They should have slightly enhanced strength but only that, they should be really slow and also only be able to see via what remains of their eyes instead of having the extravision tag (or an altered variation that doesn't give them wallhacks). That said, they should have some different variations as well. Fresh corpses would obviously be stronger than decayed ones due to still having muscles and whatnot, also because the necromancer would divert less of their magic to keep them from falling apart. Then there would be skeletons which obviously would be the weakest.

[WordsandChaos]

The zombies, as they are, act more like revenants, in terms of raw capabilities, than zombies. You could essentially just change the name and then put in a new version of the zombie that more closely matches a zombie.

[quekwoambojish]

1 doesnt happen.  With the exception of mummies, who hone in on desecrators.

You can sneak up on undead towers.



video 2 showcases that.  Well, it showcases how smoke breaks their detection.  I snuck up on them to lay down the fire.

Interesting, I'll have to try this thanks!

I don't entirely know what you mean by 1 doesn't happen though? I have snuck into a necro tower before without disturbing and zombies, but there's 2 I've been re-attempting recently, and they start chasing me from a fair distance away....I was thinking it maybe had to do with what you said here,

"It appears to not be an infinite range for spotting you, its just that the initial plop-in from fast travel leaves in in terrible sneaking position"

Can you elaborate for me please?

[pisskop]

Drop out of fast travel a tile or two before you are forced to, get on the ground, and sneak.

I dont think undead actually 'see', but the darker it is the closer to the ground you are, the more veggitation there is, and the better your skill is the easier it is.  You will need some sneak skill to get too close to the tower, but with sufficient skill you can get to the door with no problem.

[ZM5]

The zombies, as they are, act more like revenants, in terms of raw capabilities, than zombies. You could essentially just change the name and then put in a new version of the zombie that more closely matches a zombie.

That'd be a good solution as well IMO.

I feel the biggest problem with current zombies is that they come in massive numbers, too much for being so powerful. I normally don't mind a lack of balance in games like this, but, it's really not fun even in the DF sense of the word when you randomly get one shot because a zombie falcon punches your brain out of your skull. Especially after you've already killed 50 zombies and still had 50 more to go. Splitting them into different variants would probably be the best way to balance this.

"Revenant" undead should be rare, not as much as thralls/husks but still rare enough so when you see one you go "oh crap".

Regular zombies should be slightly stronger than an average member of their race but not enough to be able to punch through steel helms just with their bare hands.

[WordsandChaos]

The zombies, as they are, act more like revenants, in terms of raw capabilities, than zombies. You could essentially just change the name and then put in a new version of the zombie that more closely matches a zombie.

That'd be a good solution as well IMO.

I feel the biggest problem with current zombies is that they come in massive numbers, too much for being so powerful. I normally don't mind a lack of balance in games like this, but, it's really not fun even in the DF sense of the word when you randomly get one shot because a zombie falcon punches your brain out of your skull. Especially after you've already killed 50 zombies and still had 50 more to go. Splitting them into different variants would probably be the best way to balance this.

"Revenant" undead should be rare, not as much as thralls/husks but still rare enough so when you see one you go "oh crap".

Regular zombies should be slightly stronger than an average member of their race but not enough to be able to punch through steel helms just with their bare hands.

I think Toady has talked about Revenants before, and how giving them specific tasks and goals -because revenants exist because they want something - was something he'd have to look at.

As for zombies, I think if they were toned down and still came in their giant hoardes, thatd'd be fine. You don't even have to mnake them strong, their whole schtick is that they are slow, stupid, falling apart, and there are more of them than you have bullets/bolts/arrows/bodies for. They are attrition made flesh, so to speak. Albeit the flesh is falling onto the floor in maggot-eaten chunks.

[ZM5]

I think Toady has talked about Revenants before, and how giving them specific tasks and goals -because revenants exist because they want something - was something he'd have to look at.

As for zombies, I think if they were toned down and still came in their giant hoardes, thatd'd be fine. You don't even have to mnake them strong, their whole schtick is that they are slow, stupid, falling apart, and there are more of them than you have bullets/bolts/arrows/bodies for. They are attrition made flesh, so to speak. Albeit the flesh is falling onto the floor in maggot-eaten chunks.

I haven't actually seen that post but that sounds like an interesting idea.

To be fair though, that sounds a bit like it'd be more quest material in the sense that you could help the revenant achieve their goal to put them to rest, instead of being the target of "there's a undead monster somewhere in the jungles of clenching; it's big, deadly, and totally awesome, GO KILL IT" type quests. So I'm not sure if that helps a lot with balancing zombies, it'd feel like kind of a waste to give revenants the current zombies physical attributes only for them to be easily skippable.

To be honest, I didn't make the exact distinction at first as the only types of revenants I'm familiar with are the ones from Warcraft and Mortal Kombat, neither of which are the "classic" depiction of being undead with a purpose.

As for regular zombies, I do agree they should come in large numbers (despite the lag, but I suppose that is inevitable - oh God I said it), that's a basic principle of zombies, they just shouldn't be AS strong as they are now, maybe only slightly stronger than a generic human/elf/dwarf/goblin so they wouldn't be entirely useless against armored adventurers, but also not having the power of a jackhammer in each limb.

[WordsandChaos]

"Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."

I think it came up in a DF talk ages ago, and there might be something on the 'long-arse list of stuff we'd like to code' page. Yeah, they should definitely be toned way down. Especially when you've got things like  autonomous undead rat skins with the power of ten thousand enraged elephants. I don't know if the power is constrained based on mass or something? I might be vastly underestimating how in depth the undead physics are, but I'd assume it'd just be 'take dead thing's dealiness and times by the mass of the sun, on ressurection.'

[ZM5]

Especially when you've got things like autonomous undead rat skins with the power of ten thousand enraged elephants.

That's a sentence I never thought I'd ever hear or read. Only in DF...
Mind if I sig it?
On a more serious note, I assume that's a glitch, as I've never seen skins ever do any amount of damage.

[WordsandChaos]

Sig: Go wild.

Yeah I haven't played in a while, but random dismembered bits of undead can do some surprising damage...

[MobRules]

So I'm not sure if that helps a lot with balancing zombies, it'd feel like kind of a waste to give revenants the current zombies physical attributes only for them to be easily skippable.

Having a purpose doesn't mean they're always easily skippable. Sure, sometimes you might be able to help one out. But they might not always able and/or willing to communicate what they need to accomplish, might not always be interested in your aid, and might have goals diametrically opposed to your own.


(In fact, it sets up the possibility of something you kill coming back at a future date as a revenant with an agenda against you, personally, and hungry for revenge.)

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

One thing I would consider is if there were - wait, that's just husks and thralls!  Those and zombies need to be separated more.

[ZM5]

So I'm not sure if that helps a lot with balancing zombies, it'd feel like kind of a waste to give revenants the current zombies physical attributes only for them to be easily skippable.

Having a purpose doesn't mean they're always easily skippable. Sure, sometimes you might be able to help one out. But they might not always able and/or willing to communicate what they need to accomplish, might not always be interested in your aid, and might have goals diametrically opposed to your own.


(In fact, it sets up the possibility of something you kill coming back at a future date as a revenant with an agenda against you, personally, and hungry for revenge.)

True, I suppose. The idea with people raising from the dead to kill your adventurer in revenge would be awesome though, would probably discourage random killing sprees because a bunch of powerful revenants may come your way...but perhaps that would encourage those sprees even more.

One thing I would consider is if there were - wait, that's just husks and thralls!  Those and zombies need to be separated more.

I agree on that. I think husks/thralls should remain as is though - powerful, rare undead creatures - because as I and other people have been suggesting its mostly zombies that need changing.
Slightly off-topic, but I would like seeing other types of evil weather that result in different creatures that aren't necessarily undead - mutants or the like who aren't completely mindless but can still be agressive.

[pisskop]

thralls in 40 are about as dangerous as undead in 34, and undead in 40 are more like thralls in 34.

besides, ive been under the impressions that thralls are necessarily 'dead' so much as 'souless biomass that murderizes'

[ZM5]

thralls in 40 are about as dangerous as undead in 34, and undead in 40 are more like thralls in 34.

besides, ive been under the impressions that thralls are necessarily 'dead' so much as 'souless biomass that murderizes'

Are they? Basing on the interaction examples raws they seem basically the same, stat-wise.

Lore-wise, don't really know. I was under the impression that by "soulless, lifehating biomass" they're more or less an undead offshot. Basically like the Resident Evil zombies - not "true" undead, but not truly living either.