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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 167044 times)

Arcvasti

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1080 on: December 27, 2014, 02:27:40 pm »

It's mostly men who play games. Do not cite statistics that include Facebook and iPhone games which have little to no budgets and require little to no effort to play. Large game developers target the male audience because they make more money that way. It's called a demographic. Appealing to everyone takes more money, work, time, and it doesn't make the game necessarily "better" either. Sometimes you even begin to alienate your old fanbase if you make some drastic changes to appeal to a wider audience. It's not worth the effort.

I'd say its not just that. Most people I know[A small, biased and anecdotal test pool, for the record. Probably slightly inaccurate.], dislike shallow sexualized female[Or otherwise, although male oversexualization is several tads rarer] characters because its a cheap gimmick. Sexualized developed characters are better, although I personally cringe at sexualization/sexuality of most types. Not that I've really had many problems of this kind, not being the type to play games where this is a major issue, preferring roguelikes and other similar genres.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1081 on: December 27, 2014, 02:28:10 pm »

No, that was including MMORPGs, and was just a rough estimate based on the 44% female figure for MMORPGs and a slightly lower figure for SPRPGs (single player).
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1082 on: December 27, 2014, 02:29:12 pm »

I wanted to mention earlier but didn't get a chance...  The fact that more Candy Crush players are female than male says absolutely nothing about whether women prefer games like Candy Crush over other games.

It's examining a small subset of the people who play a specific genre (casual puzzle games) which is a very distinct demographic from other gamers.  It could probably be shown there are more female casual gamers, but that doesn't mean female gamers are more likely to be casual.  Especially not that they're predisposed to it.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1083 on: December 27, 2014, 02:30:08 pm »

It's mostly men who play games. Do not cite statistics that include Facebook and iPhone games which have little to no budgets and require little to no effort to play. Large game developers target the male audience because they make more money that way. It's called a demographic. Appealing to everyone takes more money, work, time, and it doesn't make the game necessarily "better" either. Sometimes you even begin to alienate your old fanbase if you make some drastic changes to appeal to a wider audience. It's not worth the effort.

I'd say its not just that. Most people I know[A small, biased and anecdotal test pool, for the record. Probably slightly inaccurate.], dislike shallow sexualized female[Or otherwise, although male oversexualization is several tads rarer] characters because its a cheap gimmick. Sexualized developed characters are better, although I personally cringe at sexualization/sexuality of most types. Not that I've really had many problems of this kind, not being the type to play games where this is a major issue, preferring roguelikes and other similar genres.

what seems like male sexualization is actually a male power fantasy, -usually-. I can't think of an example otherwise. Women don't generally find the hulking brutes with muscles upon muscles depicted in games as sexually attractive.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1084 on: December 27, 2014, 02:32:14 pm »

Is there not the slightest possibility that the creator of the sexualised male is a gay or bisexual man? Gay and bisexual men certainly can find big muscles sexy. In that case, yes, it is sexualisation and not a power fantasy.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1085 on: December 27, 2014, 02:38:31 pm »

Is there not the slightest possibility that the creator of the sexualised male is a gay or bisexual man? Gay and bisexual men certainly can find big muscles sexy. In that case, yes, it is sexualisation and not a power fantasy.

I don't think anyone finds the cartoon version of this sexually attractive.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, very few people.

edit: ALso like 75% of game art would have to be done by bisexual males for that to work. All of whom think huge muscles are hot in guys and big butts and breasts in girls.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1086 on: December 27, 2014, 02:43:03 pm »

Do most male game characters, even the "power fantasy" ones, really look as overdeveloped as that?

Obviously, if the developers are all straight men, then it is likely that the females will be sexualised and the males idealised. Straight men will not sexualise other straight men. But unless it is certain that the developers are all straight men, that assumption cannot be made.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1087 on: December 27, 2014, 02:45:39 pm »

Do most male game characters, even the "power fantasy" ones, really look as overdeveloped as that?

Obviously, if the developers are all straight men, then it is likely that the females will be sexualised and the males idealised. Straight men will not sexualise other straight men. But unless it is certain that the developers are all straight men, that assumption cannot be made.

I'm saying the likelihood that a whole bunch of them are gay or bi is much less than them being straight.

Also, the problem I had is when I did a search on "male power fantasy games" and "male power fantasy comics" and "game males muscles" the results were... less heterosexual or typical of what I was looking for.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1088 on: December 27, 2014, 02:51:04 pm »

Quote from: Urist post that this was in reply to
It is not a waste of time for developers to appeal to a demographic which is 44% of their audience. I already suggested that putting female characters in vaguely sensible armour would help with this, but I also think that they cannot be putting female gamers off too much if so many of them are playing their games.

It's more that there have been female gaming enthusiasts who have charged past all the issues that drive other women away from products, well, there's a few components, the with different severity of issue.

1.) General inclusiveness. Being a part of the market who has partaken in these games, female gamers are starting to speak up about what they want from games and it so happens that one of those things is actually seeing themselves represented well with at least some regularity that one doesn't need to go out of their way to find niche products with female protagonists (or characters in general). This has largely been improving in the past few years, which is good, and even as a lot of the success is due to character customization RPGs while games with an established plot still use an overwhelmingly narrow set of traits appealing to what they feel is their strongest market. Now that the question has been raised, refusing to recognize the female market for these games is causing some negative feelings. Overall the approach to this is to criticize the homogeneous cast choices and advocate for games that challenge the idea that female leads (and in relation, female interests) should be ignored, since even if done for practical reasons there are implications in that decision.

2.) Bad Representation. A general category that includes minor offenses that could use some discussion and illumination on why women might be put off by something, to "holy fuck why would you ever do that?" Mostly I see the former or somewhere closer to it on the spectrum I just established. In these instances, represented by things like... making female armor universally sexualized, placing the expectations of availability on them and otherwise taking their sexuality for granted, versus a more equal treatment in how men and women have access to "sexy armor."

Other issues lower on the severity spectrum may also be due to the issues of casting and common tropes, but they provide an easy trap to fall into since they largely coincide with real world problems, such as the contributions of women being overshadowed by men. This issue is still up in the air and tied to those discussions of wage gap, both from raw wages and how women (or other marginalized groups with even greater trouble - but I want to avoid that derail again) seem to be considered differently on some level that pushes them at least partially out of the spotlight in many occasions. To get back to video games... When video games reemphasize this permeating idea, feminist critics feel that it's essential to point out these stereotypes to cast light on their influences and make designers put more thought into how they go about representing women.

Of course there are going to be different ways these issues are confronted. Some may be more well measured than others, and there can be significant disagreement, especially over issues that cross lines of intersectionality. Sarkeesian, for instance, has had considerable criticism lodged at her by other feminists for the sometimes demeaning way she refers to sex workers (intentionally or not). Some of it is very harsh.

(pre-post edit: 8 new messages... well damn. Whatevah! Guess I'll quote to make it clear what I'm responding to, though looking back I guess I went into a tangent about previous arguments around sexualized armor and other kinds of criticism about gender representation *plop*)
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1089 on: December 27, 2014, 02:56:12 pm »

Hmm, I'm going to look up that stuff about Sarkeesian, because demeaning and insulting sex workers is never okay. For christ's sake, they are on the front lines, as far as I am concerned.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1090 on: December 27, 2014, 03:00:14 pm »

Sexy "armour" is not armour, or at least not functional armour. The stupid thing is that 1. it is the standard style for female characters in some games and 2. it functions identically to more sensible armour in game. If these 2 features were changed so players of both sexes had sensible armour by default and could get sexy "armour" but it would be less practical and effective, we would soon see it disappearing from most players' games, and those who want it can still have it.

"Sex workers" covers a wide variety of people. If you mean porn performers, they (especially the women) can earn a lot of money and are not in a lot of danger most of the time nowadays, though it is not a healthy lifestyle and often involves a lot of drugs. If you mean prostitutes, they are doing a nasty and dangerous job unless they are in a reasonably secure brothel (see Amsterdam, where prostitutes in distress can raise alarms for assistance). If you mean people working in sex shops, they are like any other shop workers. I could go on and on with this. Sometimes being a little more specific helps.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 03:02:58 pm by Urist Uristurister »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1091 on: December 27, 2014, 03:05:12 pm »

Sexy "armour" is not armour, or at least not functional armour. The stupid thing is that 1. it is the standard style for female characters in some games and 2. it functions identically to more sensible armour in game. If these 2 features were changed so players of both sexes had sensible armour by default and could get sexy "armour" but it would be less practical and effective, we would soon see it disappearing from most players' games, and those who want it can still have it.

"Sex workers" covers a wide variety of people. If you mean porn performers, they (especially the women) can earn a lot of money and are not in a lot of danger, though it is not a healthy lifestyle and often involves a lot of drugs. If you mean prostitutes, they are doing a nasty and dangerous job unless they are in a reasonably secure brothel (see Amsterdam, where prostitutes in distress can raise alarms for assistance). If you mean people working in sex shops, they are like any other shop workers. I could go on and on with this. Sometimes being a little more specific helps.

source? I know and follow plenty of porn stars and this is not my experience. Also, prostitutes don't do a "nasty" job. It's the world's oldest profession.

Sex workers does not include people working in sex shops.

It includes prostitutes, porn stars, strippers, etc. But I was commenting on wanting to look into what Sarkeesian may have said that was offensive, not really wanting to derail the thread about sex workers. I don't think it requires more specifics.

I don't understand your obsession with realism in games. Like, we really don't need sexualized version of armor available either way, and it would be silly to have to change how the system evaluates armor just to make women more vulnerable in the boob window area. That would just be a massive waste of time. I don't see sexualized armor and go "I should be able to shoot her in the cleavage and do lots of damage" that's not the issue at hand.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1092 on: December 27, 2014, 03:05:29 pm »

Do most male game characters, even the "power fantasy" ones, really look as overdeveloped as that?

Obviously, if the developers are all straight men, then it is likely that the females will be sexualised and the males idealised. Straight men will not sexualise other straight men. But unless it is certain that the developers are all straight men, that assumption cannot be made.

I'm saying the likelihood that a whole bunch of them are gay or bi is much less than them being straight.

Also, the problem I had is when I did a search on "male power fantasy games" and "male power fantasy comics" and "game males muscles" the results were... less heterosexual or typical of what I was looking for.

Well... Ignoring casual homophobia and biphobia being presented here.

Men and women like sexy characters whether they are straight, bi, or gay. We have an innate sense of whether something is attractive.

Straight men will sexualize other straight men. The difference is the kind of sexualization.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1093 on: December 27, 2014, 03:07:26 pm »

I would say they idealise them more than sexualise them, in portraying them how they themselves want to be. It is an aspirational desire rather than a sexual one.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1094 on: December 27, 2014, 03:11:01 pm »

Do most male game characters, even the "power fantasy" ones, really look as overdeveloped as that?

Obviously, if the developers are all straight men, then it is likely that the females will be sexualised and the males idealised. Straight men will not sexualise other straight men. But unless it is certain that the developers are all straight men, that assumption cannot be made.

I'm saying the likelihood that a whole bunch of them are gay or bi is much less than them being straight.

Also, the problem I had is when I did a search on "male power fantasy games" and "male power fantasy comics" and "game males muscles" the results were... less heterosexual or typical of what I was looking for.

Well... Ignoring casual homophobia and biphobia being presented here.

Men and women like sexy characters whether they are straight, bi, or gay. We have an innate sense of whether something is attractive.

Straight men will sexualize other straight men. The difference is the kind of sexualization.

that's not biphobia or homophobia at all. Please point out what you are talking about.

I have yet to see a straight man sexualize another straight man, and that is not what is happening with game graphics by male artists. I seriously don't think the industry standard is about sexualizing males and I don't feel, based on my experience, that the images represented are something most people, regardless of sexuality, find sexy. It's about being powerful and being able to tear people apart with your bare hands. It's a masculine dominance thing.

I think you are missing the point here when you say both genders like sexy characters. I am saying, for me personally as a pansexual women, and for a lot of women of varying sexualities, having our gender objectified in games is not sexy. It just devalues us as people. I don't personally care if my character is sexy or not, I played a female troll in EQ and thought she looked awesome both in the old graphics and new graphics (RIP butt scratching.)

A character can be cool and not attractive in a conventional sense anyway.

I would say they idealise them more than sexualise them, in portraying them how they themselves want to be. It is an aspirational desire rather than a sexual one.

yes, that is exactly it.
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