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[Persus13]

Caz: Why didn't you claim miller from day one?

What would be the benefit to that?

You avoid looking like scum desperately trying to avoid being lynched and don't waste a cop's time investigating you?

Yeah, and also makes it a step easier for scum to target PRs.

How?

Shamrock didn't claim, but I suspect he's a cop from his interactions with Deus before TolyK claimed.

And you're stating this out loud because?

[Caz]

How?

Scenario: you're scum. are you going to kill a self-proclaimed miller over anyone else possible?

[Deus Asmoth]

How?

Scenario: you're scum. are you going to kill a self-proclaimed miller over anyone else possible?

Scenario: You're a cop and you have a guilty result on someone who's been acting suspicious. If that person claims to be a miller, do you stop trying to get them lynched?

[Caz]

How?

Scenario: you're scum. are you going to kill a self-proclaimed miller over anyone else possible?

Scenario: You're a cop and you have a guilty result on someone who's been acting suspicious. If that person claims to be a miller, do you stop trying to get them lynched?

There are two cops and already evidence of framing going on. How likely is two cop hits on scum day 1? Do you not think something strange is going on? If this all happened and I was a cop, you'd bet I'd be more suspicious instead of "lol kill the mafia cop reads now bc i can't be bothered scumhunting!"

 You still didn't answer my question btw.

[flabort]

pfp larger answer later but my supects are, in order,
TolyK
Caz
Mastahcheese
Persus13
Tiruin/Silthuri

[Deus Asmoth]

There's no evidence of framing, there's a theory that the scum might have the ability to plant evidence. We also have two people who only decided to claim miller after they got investigated, which is suspicious as hell in my book. Sure it's unlikely that both cops would hit scum on the first night, but it's even more unlikely that we'd both hit millers, and I'm a lot more inclined to think that you're scum than that flabort is.

If you're going to accuse me of not doing enough scumhunting I'd recommend you do some of your own, since your contributions to that effort so far have been not giving any reads day 1 and lynching Scripten over an admittedly questionable reaction test.

As for your question: I'd kill them if it suited me. If they claim to be a miller and the town believes them, they're a dangerous party to let survive into the late game from a scum point of view. If it looks like some of the town are doubtful of their claim, then I'd leave them alive as lynch bait.

[TolyK]

So, Caz is to be lynched, and TDS isn't gonna get any sleep tonight.

[Deus Asmoth]

Looks that way. It'd be nice to get input from a few more people before that happens though.

[flabort]

What.

By the way, Flabort, please tell me exactly why I'm more scummy than you. Keep in mind that the only way to prove your innocence (within normal bounds) is to prove that I'm lying, though I'm sure you know that already.

So you want some evidence? Time for an investigation, and to string together unrelated objects into a plausible theory! Just kidding, of course.

I can't prove you're more scummy than me, because I did claim AFTER you accused me, and the only way to prove you're lying is to either cause someone to flip (you or me) or to catch you in a different lie. I think if there's something amiss with your story it's the coded messages. There was nothing about Italian sausage at all? The messages were coded in what language (Because if it were German that would be the proof I need)? Anything about Catholicism? Seriously, my miller-like ability is based on my Italian heritage. If the messages point towards me being a German spy, I think you're either lying about inspecting me, or insane.

Basically, you and I have equal reason to suspect eachother, but as far as I'm concerned the rest of the players have equal reason to suspect us right now (pouring a nice big glass of WIFOM aren't I? Shoot, that's getting me nowhere), and as far as your concerned the town should have no reason not to suspect me, isn't that right?

How about if I can't prove you're lying by the end of day 3 you can lynch me then?

Caz: Why didn't you claim miller from day one?

Same thing to Flabort as well, though he answered already (right?).

Yeah, I did above. I missed the call to claim and thought that since mine wasn't standard miller it wouldn't come up.

But I've a very significant curiosity towards the cops...though.

I'd like you to explain the reason behind this wording. Why not say "I'm very curious about the cops, though"? Why are you curious about the cops, besides what's already been said? Why not elaborate on the phrase?

Shamrock didn't claim, but I suspect he's a cop from his interactions with Deus before TolyK claimed.

And you're stating this out loud because?

Because Caz asked here:

I do, but my suspects for being townsided cops are Deus and Shamrock, I suspect TolyK of being scum.

Wait, there's three claimed cops? O_o

And I stated that I suspected Shamrock of being a cop there because I do believe there are probably two town-sided cops. Three if we're lucky, but if we're not they're all fake-claiming. Middle-of-the-road situation is that only one of them is sane, and one is fake-claiming, and one of the two that actually are cops is avoiding saying it, which is what I think might be the case. And just because I suspect Shamrock of being a cop for his oddly specific questions about Deus's result doesn't mean he is.

TheDarkStar Before you stay up at night, what are your reads so far?

Deathsword I'd like to see some more activity out of you today. It was just the weekend, so I don't have any problem with that, but I'd like to see what you think of your fellow players?

Persus13 I'd like your reads as well; but from the perspective of voting for lookout, most trustworthy, instead of who's most scummy. If you want to give standard reads too, though, I wouldn't raise an objection to that.

[Comrade Shamrock]

Flabort:
My reads
Least suspicious
Me: Well you can guess why.
Deus: I'm as sure as I can be on this one. He seems good. Also the rank he pulled out for flavour is kinda obscure also I double checked about the divisions postings to Algeria and Sicily. So either he knows how to craft a good lie or he's just reading his flavour. Also Caz's pathetic miller claim reinforces it for me.
mastahcheese: Not nearly as much as I trust Deus but still I trust him, somewhat. He's provided useful information so far and some interesting insight on Lookout mechanic.
Tolyk: I'm not entirely sure on his cop claim. But still he has not been afraid to call into doubt his own findings suggesting either him or Deus could be insane/paranoid.
Persus: I don't view self voting for lookout as scummy as some of you seem to think. If you're town and think you can use it well fair enough.
Deathsword: Has done some scumhunting but has mainly been hitting Vivalas. Seems to be just tunneling for the most part.
Tiruin: Not much content out of her. It seems like most posts tend to be promises of posts later which continues in a cycle.
Silthuri: One post in all. I view her as slightly less trustworthy than Tiruin for her lookout vote on mastahcheese. No reason is provided for it. She just seemed to be trying to ingratiate herself with the cheese supporters
Flabort: His miller claim is very fishy. He has actively scumhunted though. He could have shared however that mafia ally was a role we could expect if he was going to show up as possibly being one.
TDS: I don't like the way he's going for his lookouthood. He seemed very eager to get it D1 and has so far avoided voting himself for it possibly to avoid looking scummy as some of you showed D1 when wanting to avoid picking Caz for exacly that reason.
Vivalas: Disappears when he comes under attack. Also votes weirdly. Me without reason when he had stronger suspiscions elsewhere. Claimed RVS.
Caz: The worst role claim I've ever seen. I've seen cartoon characters tell sterner lies than that.

Also I must thank you for painting a target on my back Flabort. I'm overjoyed at that. Also just so you know. I'm not a cop. [/sarcasm]

Caz:
Your claim is very, very shaky.

I'm a miller. Chinese private that wanted to be deployed against the Japanese or something.

Or something? What does that mean? Your motivation is either stated in your flavour or it's not. You seem very unsure of what it actually is.

what i mean is that even without the evidence thing i probably would have some up mafia due to my role being asian. (aka americans are racist)

I'm not sure but what is that? "Probably", how are you a miller then if you say you're being framed?

Everyone:
Wouldn't Miller provide a reason for why you would show up as mafia?

[flabort]

Reads

4maskwolf The person I'd most like to have on my team if I were scum. Scum Bastard Mod, for sure.
TolyK The inconsistancies between my role and his result on me, esp. seeing me as mafia and not town or third party, are very odd. Also being the second cop to claim, at a time when I already suspected two other people of being cops (one claimed already), it's just too many cops. Yes, claiming earlier would have helped in my defense, but he's just... wrong.
Caz The evidence points to her being scum, but it also points at me, but I'm more inclined to trust the accuracy of Deus's claim. I don't like the "or something" in her brief role summary, though, and I don't like the way TolyK is being quite so agressive. There are four situations: 1) He's bussing her. 2) He's scum, she's town, he's trying to get rid of her. 3) She's scum, he's town. 4) There are two scumteams and they're both scum working against eachother.
Mastahcheese I only suspect him because of the convience of his claim for TolyK. And because he said he couldn't deny being on a team with TolyK and didn't raise an objection to it, although he could have been refering to being both town. (As a suggestion, how about a 6 on that scale?) If TolyK flips scum, I'd pressure Cheese a fair bit.
Persus13 8th rule of playing mafia: Don't comment on how much the night kill did or did not favor you first thing in the morning. Especially if it's the only thing you're going to say. Even if there is no kill, it often looks like scum patting themselves on the back for a clever play. This isn't why I suspect you. Despite the powers of observation I praised you for, you didn't answer the question in the post where I did.
Silthuri Usually absent. Drops by to bandwagon Scripten and Mastahcheese, then gone again.
Tiruin Usually absent. A few more posts than Silthuri but almost all of them are 'I'm reading'. One is 'I'm reading, but the cops are funny'.
Vivalas Newbie shields were up day 1, of course, but now they're down. However, I don't remember why some people found him scummy. I don't seem to be able to recall at ALL.
Deathsword I... didn't pay much attention to him. Null read because my fault.
TheDarkStar I... didn't pay much attention to him. Null read because my fault.
Comrade Shamrock I suspect he's a cop, but found town last night, so he's being quite. Either that or he was goading Deus into revealing himself, but I choose to believe the former because of his oddly specific questions. He doesn't like that I said it out loud. Oops?
Deus Asmoth Seems like a sane enough, trustworthy enough cop. The flavor contradiction is odd, but it seems more like of a case of Caz playing Monkey See, Monkey Do. I claimed miller, she claims miller. I claim a foreign nationality, she claims a foreign nationality. I claim a contradiction with the cop's flavor, she claims a contradiction with the cop's flavor. But as far as Deus goes, the leading theory is that he's sane and a victim of forgery.

Two cops is an issue, and there has to be something to counter that, and I'm worried that that something is a cult.

I once played in a game where litterally everyone was some form of cop. Insane cops, Paranoid cops, scum cops, role cops, insane or paranoid scum or role cops, etc.
However, despite this I don't think that there HAS to be something specifically to balance two cops; there might be two cops just because the mod wanted there to be, and he didn't balance it. So there doesn't HAVE to be something to balance it. Although there could be something, like a cult, framer, or dueling scum-teams as previously suggested, or some form of insanity. Not saying there HAS to be, though.

Persus, Re: Missed question:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shamrock        ScriptenDeus
Mastahcheese           TheDarkStar
Vivalas             Flabort
Silthuri             Tiruin
TolyK               Caz
Deathsword          Persus

For yourself, if you had an inspection, who in each column would you use it on first?
In each pairing, who would you rather be lookout?

Also, in each color set (colors are random), who would you like to be lynched the most?

Everyone:
Wouldn't Miller provide a reason for why you would show up as mafia?

Usually, if there's flavor as to who your are supposed to be (Such as a specific soldier), then there's a reason why you show up as mafia. Therefor, a miller should usually provide this flavor that explains it.

[Deus Asmoth]

My reads:
Caz: The fluff in my result and the flavour text she's claiming don't even come close to matching up. Planted evidence or miller is a possibility, but the fact that she didn't claim it until she'd been found out and my suspicions of her from day one make me think she's scum looking for a way out. She's also done little to no scumhunting in spite of being fairly active for the last while.
flabort: Been one of the most active day two players, so I'm leaning town. Not pointing out his pseudo-miller status is a black mark, though less so since he thought he'd be showing up as a third party.
TolyK: Town lean, pending further evidence. My options for him are (paranoid cop), [mafia rolecop- the least likely as he'd have no reason to lynch someone who showed up as one of his allies in that case] or {I'm wrong about flabort}.
Shamrock: I believe I may have been overly harsh about him day 1. I'd say he's more than likely town, he's certainly been active and contributing more than most today.
Tiruin & Silthuri: Tiruin has promised more input to come, Silthuri hasn't done much at all.  Both have been (somewhat) active in other threads, so they may be unable to read the thread or they may be lurking. Leaning for scum on both.
Deathsword: Some activity at daybreak, then went quiet. Was voting for Vivalas before the Scripten lynch, so it's not all that surprising that he'd go back to questioning his former target afterwards. Need to see more of him.
Vivalas: The late RVS vote was my only real reason for thinking he was scummy earlier, so I'm going for neutral on him at the moment. Hasn't been on the forums since his last post here, so probably not lurking (I'm totes a gr8 spy, gais!).
mastahcheese: His play certainly seems town orientated, and I'm inclined to say he's probably definitely town for now.
Persus13: Frankly, the only reason I wasn't voting for him to be lookout is because he voted for himself. That's probably just a personal thing. I think he's probably town, and more than likely vanilla if he's trying to swing lookout duty for himself.
TDS: Day Two contributions: Jumping on the Caz wagon and agreeing to do lookout duty. Could do with seeing more from him.

Silthuri: Which of the two people claiming to be cops are you more inclined to trust? Which of they two mafia results that they found would you vote for, and why?

[4maskwolf]

Unfortunate Accident Voting:
mastahcheese(0):
TheDarkStar(0):
Caz(5): TheDarkStar, Persus13, TolyK, Comrade Shamrock, Deus Asmoth
Deathsword(0):
Persus13(0):
Vivalas(1): Deathsword
Tiruin(0):
Silthuri(0):
flabort(1): mastahcheese
TolyK(1): flabort
Comrade Shamrock(0):
Deus Asmoth(0):
No Lynch(0):
Not Voting: Caz, Persus13, Vivalas, Tiruin, Silthuri

Lookout Voting:
mastahcheese(0):
TheDarkStar(2): mastahcheese, TolyK
Caz(0):
Deathsword(0):
Persus13(3): Persus13, Comrade Shamrock, Deus Asmoth
Vivalas(0):
Tiruin(0):
Silthuri(0):
flabort(0):
TolyK(0):
Comrade Shamrock(0):
Deus Asmoth(0):
Not Voting: TheDarkStar, Caz, Deathsword, Vivalas, Tiruin, Silthuri, flabort, TolyK, Comrade Shamrock

Current Lynch Target: Caz
Current Lookout Target: Persus13

[TheDarkStar]

Reads:

mastahcheese: Town lean for the way that he methodically went through various possibilities on Day 1 and lots of scumhunting.
TheDarkStar:  Needless to say, I trust myself more than Persus.
Caz: Leaning scummy due to Deus's inspection result and the the way that Caz dealt with it (roleclaiming/millerclaiming that looks like scum making things up to defend themselves). Has been defensive for a large portion of the game. Due to some Day 1 arguing with flabort, I don't think that both him and flabort are on the same team. They could both be scum on different teams, though.
Deathsword: Slight town lean for some scumhunting, but not really that active.
Persus13: Town lean. He isn't that active, but he scumhunts and seems to be trying to help the town.
Vivalas: Has odd posting habits; leaning third-party
Tiruin: Null from lack of content.
Silthuri: Null from lack of content.
flabort: Slight town lean - he posts like he's town, but TolyK got a scum read on him. I'd guess that either TolyK is insane/had his inspect altered (likely) or he is lying (unlikely), especially since flabort has said some odd but specific things about his role.
TolyK: Town lean - claims cop and that flabort is scum, but it seems odd. More likely a cop who is insane or who was targeted by something, especially since he and Deus have checked rolenames and info against each other.
Comrade Shamrock: Third party maybe? He doesn't seem to scumhunt that much, but he doesn't act scummy either.
Deus Asmoth: Town lean - claims cop and scumread on Caz. He and TolyK are almost certainly town.

Questions (more tomorrow when I have more time):

Comrade Shamrock, why do you find me more suspicious that almost everyone else? What is it that you don't like about my lookout aspirations today (which consist of barely anything, actually)? Where did you manage to find somewhere where I posted about them from Day 1, considering that I didn't even mention wanting that iirc?

Tiruin and Silthuri, reads?

flabort, you said in your reads that Caz is probably scum and Deus is being honest, but then you say that Deus is probably a "victim of forgery" and Caz is not actually scum. Which of these do you think is correct?

[TheDarkStar]

One note about trusting myself more than Persus: He leans town in my reads, but he's not as town-leaning as, for example, the role cops. I trust myself the most because I know my own alignment (mostly, considering what kind of game this is) for certain.