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[Urist Tilaturist]

Even if DF is based only on momentum, force=mass*acceleration (kinetic energy is this integrated, or, alternatively, this is kinetic energy differentiated). If the sword is moving faster, it will have more momentum (mass*velocity) and decelerate faster on hitting the target and hit with more force. Therefore, the sword should hit the enemy while moving very quickly. But this can be achieved with good striking technique that does not involve swinging the sword like a baseball bat while the foe dodges away and strikes the swinger as he raises his sword to swing again.

In a way, it is similar to swinging a golf club - thrashing wildly at the ball leads to poor shots and quick exhaustion, while a quick but controlled strike can send the ball hundreds of metres without requiring too much effort.

[Sergarr]

Sorry, but swords (and any other weapons) have practically zero deceleration when going through multiple layers.
Also, with current contact areas, short sword's contact area is about 10 times greater than the contact area of an average elephant's leg.
So swords in DF are not really swords, but rather gigantic shredders, if you slash with them.

DF really should depict those values directly into user's interface, or else we're going to spend eternity trying to find all these bugs.

(EDIT) For information: average contact area of an upper human body is about ~100 units. Contact area of a short short slash is 20000 units.

To get even slightly close to realism, we would need to decrease the weapon's contact areas by the factor of 1000.

[Uronym]

Personally, I have no problem with the combat system. Sometimes, the results seem far-fetched (like skulls being crushed in fistfights), and legendary dwarves kill like a humanoid blender, but that is fine with me. Could be improved, but not serious.

What bothers me is that the goblins never actually seem to come anymore, so any problems with the combat system itself are almost entirely irrelevant. There is nothing to test your defenses against, or the fighting capabilities of your dwarves, or your mobilization capability. All that can be tested is your patience as you wait for goblins that never come but only get almost literally unbeatable zombies, which are no fun at all.

(I like goblins more anyway, for their flavor; zombies make it feel like another stupid zombie defense game.)

[Urist Tilaturist]

In my opinion, these values are completely, utterly bugged and must be changed, massively decreasing weapon contact area for a start. I remember alarm bells going off when a legendary swordsdwarf bisected a marsh titan with a thick shell across its body. Something is rotten in the state of DF, and I don't mean all that marsh titan meat spilled everywhere after a tantrumming dwarf smashed the butcher's shop. Reducing this ridiculous damage would make fights against beasts much, much harder, along with stopping them from fainting from a broken toe. My real problem with this is that 1. it is utterly stupid and, more importantly, 2. it makes the game far too easy if legendary dwarves can just cut titans in half then go home for *prepared troll lung roast*.

I have done a little more research on the matter of swords cutting bone and found some skeletons from the Viking age which have had both legs cut with a single strike and skulls cut through. Swords were clearly capable of cutting bone, but these Viking swords were made of very pure crucible steel by very skilled swordsmiths - they would be *steel short sword*s in game. These feats should not be so possible with swords of lower quality or made from weaker materials. I have yet to research how much damage iron and bronze swords could do to bone, but I know that splitting a skull with a copper sword is somewhat unlikely.

I have little knowledge of swords made of materials other than steel, so I do not really feel qualified to say too much about them. Purchasing iron or bronze swords is a very low priority for me given how expensive well made swords are.

[Sergarr]

There really should be another mod in the lieu of "Broken Arrow" one, but for meele weapons. Oh wait, I'm a modder.

brb, going to mod

[Urist Tilaturist]

Thank you for the effort. I would be happy to test your mod once it is done if you give me the link.

[Sergarr]

A quick question: should a heavy slashing strike from a steel two-handed sword on a lying opponent hack through a steel breastplate, or not?

[Max™]

Steel vs steel is going to be less effective if you aren't punching holes with a stab, a slashing strike going through is going to take a lot more leverage, like jaws of life type stuff, rather than hacking at it.

I'd expect a dulled blade, a loud clang, scrapes and gouges across the armor, but not hack through, no. If anything it would dent/bend the plate inwards before the material gave out, which would hurt but again shouldn't leave a bisected corpse.

[Col_Jessep]

I would be very interested in that mod too!

One other problem with DF's fighting system is the way soldiers train. I often see my soldiers train kicking, biting, wrestling... and they use those "skills" in fights a lot. I don't want my militia commander to bite or kick a forgotten beast while he is holding a masterwork steel sword or axe. Or worse he might try to strangle a zombie. GG, no RE.

Any chance you can make them use their actual weapon more? Maybe not exclusively but a lot more than they do now.

[Magistrum]

Kicking, punching, grasping enemy limbs/weapons, and shield bashes are very important to fighting, so it really isn't a problem, but trying to bite a gigantic creature while you hold a steel spear might not be intend...

[Sergarr]

That's a bug that I cannot fix without using some ugly-looking solutions.

In other news, DF weapon physics start to behave wonky with combination of low contact area and low momentum.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Kicking, punching, grasping enemy limbs/weapons, and shield bashes are very important to fighting, so it really isn't a problem, but trying to bite a gigantic creature while you hold a steel spear might not be intend...

Shield bashes and grabs, yes, but an armed warrior would not use punches and kicks much while he still has his weapon. An ugly solution is only better if it is not too ugly.

An excellent addition would be the risk of a dwarf breaking his knuckles or teeth (not fainting as a result) after hitting or biting thick bone. Gauntlets would act as knuckle dusters and protect the dwarf's fists, allowing him to punch goblins in the head with impunity.

[Magistrum]

I also think throwing a punch against a breastplate should not end well for the attacker, but kicking is really important at fighting ( knocking people out of their feet, breaking knees)

[Urist Tilaturist]

I also think throwing a punch against a breastplate should not end well for the attacker, but kicking is really important at fighting ( knocking people out of their feet, breaking knees)

Kicking was only really used in history to soften the opponent when weapons were high (swords blocking a strike to the head, for example). In this case, a kick in the groin or knee could be very useful to shake the opponent's balance. In other cases attacks with weapons were far more useful, since the weapon being forcefully parried did not lead to the striker suffering a fall or worse. If a leg is caught kicking, the kicker can easily be thrown to the ground. As Anderson Silva learned, launching lots of leg kicks can also lead to very nasty injuries if the leg is struck with the opponent's knee, and he was not fighting enemies with swords.

Even punching a normal skull should often end badly for an untrained, unarmoured dwarf.

[Magistrum]

About Anderson Silva... Yeah, he just got unlucky, the kick got defended, and he landed the wrong part of the leg in the opponent.