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[scrdest]

I'm homebrewing a NWoD-based communist spy thriller. I'm lacking systems for factions, which I think should be more active (I.E. rules for interactions between factions) than the vanilla systems.

Does anyone have any recommendations for interesting faction systems in other RPGs that I could rip off?

Check out Night's Black Agents core and the Double Tap supplement. As a spy-thriller-based system, it has a ton of information on the operations of the kind of groups you'd be looking for, structure - pyramid-based, with increasing reach of power, i.e. top level being transnational, then national, down to members only able to project power within a single city, and such.

Double Tap has ideas on handling factions teamed up as part a larger organization breaking down relations and eventually openly feuding so that the players can dismantle said antagonistic organization by letting it tear itself apart rather than having to do it yourself top to bottom.

[Kadzar]

I'm homebrewing a NWoD-based communist spy thriller. I'm lacking systems for factions, which I think should be more active (I.E. rules for interactions between factions) than the vanilla systems.

Does anyone have any recommendations for interesting faction systems in other RPGs that I could rip off?

You could check out the faction system in Stars Without Number as a starting point. It's pretty loose from what I've gathered, but apparently pretty easy to port into other games as well.

If you want a simpler faction system (from the same author), the one from Godbound is pretty good.

[Cruxador]

If you're using a martial class then your sword play can become even more complex then spell casting!

Well, comparing a sword strike to the act of casting a single spell, anyway. Not compared to casting the full breadth of spells available with access to metamagic and other casting feats.

[Rolan7]

I'd agree except for the Tome of Battle.  First off, maneuvers are practically spells.  They have limited uses until they're recovered, and can be cast from "scrips" (scrolls).  Most have supernatural or even spell-like effects (literally casting fire, bolstering teammates, removing status effects etc).  A warblade is still pretty martial, but a swordsage is a sorceror with a bizarre spell list and denial.  And crusaders are WEIRD.

So already we have all the complexity of a martial character, plus the complexity of several lists of unique not-spells to cast.  Sorta like a bard...  Well, it gets a lot worse.  Many of these abilities simply replace a standard action, which is fine.  But then there are a bunch of lingering buffs/effects, "stances" which alter your combat rules passively, and then a huge set of "reaction" abilities which completely grind the game to a halt.  Oh, that ogre is charging at me?  Hold up!  I have Diamond Rhino Faces The Mountain or whatever, I get to roll to make it bounce off and fall down.  Let me just look up the specific roll, factor in my martial spellcasting "initiator" level...

Sudden Leap let the user leap as a swift action, which totally messed with battlefield control.  Once per combat the barbearian (or my short-lived dervish) would roll a jump check, consult the jump table, and get to move that far as a bonus.  Well technically the barbearian could recharge that mid-combat, but I'll get to that.

I think there was one that literally triggered when the enemy hit you with an attack, letting you take an attack of opportunity on them.  Except there was also a feat in complete warrior that did the same, I think?  Either way the barbearian (with his fuck-off 40 ft range, jesus christ) would take AoOs as enemies attacked, tripping them usually, but if an enemy did somehow manage to hit him, he would counterattack *twice*.  And we actually had a major argument over the order the attacks procced in, because one of the books was vague about it.

So yeah, the Tome of Battle really slowed down combat by combining the slowest aspects of martial and spellcasting.  That's the main reason I hated it, even when I used it.  But also?  It was BS in other ways.

These classes can't wait to recover their spells daily like proper casters.  Instead, they each have *their own way* to recover.  From memory: 

Warblades (like our barbearian) get the least spells known and prepared at once, but they can recharge one per round with a swift action "flourish"...  Or I think, simply by striking somebody.  Such bs.

Swordsages (like my dervish) had to meditate for a full round, I think.  So basically I got all my spells back after every combat - and picked the spells from a much larger set of lists.  Oh, there wasn't one list...  there were like 8 schools, and each class had access to different ones.  I think swordsages got all but 1-2, and exclusive access to some schools that are basically just combat sorcery.  Shooting flame, blinking or going invisible with shadow, it was crazy.

Crusaders were WEIRD.  I'm pretty sure they had to roll EACH ROUND to randomly see what abilities they had available for the round!  Maybe it was per encounter, I don't know, but it was a hilariously complicated roll of course.  Fortunately we didn't use them.

So yeah, these special snowflakes got their abilities back with a "short rest" before that was a thing, or the warblade basically just kept using them will-nilly.  These abilities that interrupted the game constantly.  This was kinda frustrating as a cleric, and I don't know how the wizard felt.  I think we just tried to bear it, since we both knew that primary spellcasters are OP at later levels (which we were entering).

But surely the barbearian warblade didn't have access to many abilities, since he only took a 1 level dip?  HAHA, this is where it just gets weird!  These insanely OP and overcomplicated classes are specifically designed to be dipped into!  When you dip, you effectively get a bonus of half your other levels!  And I don't just mean to your caster "initiator" level, ohhh no.  You get to select higher level abilities with that bonus included.  There are prerequisites for the particularly good stuff, and you do have relatively few spell slots to spend, but it's broken as fuck.  And, as usual, really complicated.

But that just really cheesed me off as a primary spellcaster, where any bit of multiclassing absolutely crippled my main ability.  Even the special prestige classes essentially had taxes on advancing in casting.

It's a shame really, because the book had surprisingly good fluff.  I like the idea of making martial characters relevant at later levels, and this tries to do that...  By making them whacky casters with generously scaling abilities.  I think I see a lot of the Tome of Battle in PF and 5th edition, where I think these concepts were executed better.  And spellcasters got in on the fun too (thinking of cantrips).

[Spehss _]

So, as a total newbie to playing tabletop rpgs, what materials should I be expected to bring to a game group, such as a group at a local game shop? I'd think I would need for a pathfinder game to bring the core rulebook, character sheet + extra paper and/or notes on character + pencil, and a set of dice.

Since all my pathfinder shit is currently in pdf format I guess that means I'd need to take my laptop in order to bring along the rule books.

[BlackFlyme]

Are you the DM? It's typically on them to carry the books around. Usually we just use our phones/tablets to look stuff up if needed. Though bringing dice, papers, pencils, and erasers are important. Need to keep track of loot and initiative and other such things, after all.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ here is the official player reference document. It only really tracks core stuff though, not any splatbook or module material.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ is good for looking things up, though sometimes they don't mark third-party stuff, and due to licensing reasons, they omit copyright names.

http://archivesofnethys.com/ tracks things much better, and is allowed to mention Pathfinder specific material, such as deities.

[MrWiggles]

So, as a total newbie to playing tabletop rpgs, what materials should I be expected to bring to a game group, such as a group at a local game shop? I'd think I would need for a pathfinder game to bring the core rulebook, character sheet + extra paper and/or notes on character + pencil, and a set of dice.

Since all my pathfinder shit is currently in pdf format I guess that means I'd need to take my laptop in order to bring along the rule books.

Your own dice. Lots of gambler fallacy with gamer and dice. Dont touch other folk dice without permission. Bring pencils, and a note book for note taking.
And some sorts snack item.
And a smooth 20 dollar bill for the GM. To you know gain illicit favors from them. Or handies under the table. Whatever your fancy.

[My Name is Immaterial]

And a smooth 20 dollar bill for the GM. To you know gain illicit favors from them. Or handies under the table. Whatever your fancy.

Bring two, in case you want both.

[nenjin]

I've been going off in the 40k thread about the Tabletop Rogue Trader game I've been GMing for the last couple months. I should probably be posting it in here instead.

Long and short of it is, the party is on a vengeance quest to find and exterminate the Ork Freebooter Kaptin wot smashed their home world. They've followed his trail to the edge of Imperial space and beyond. The Captain is a madman who makes big decisions on a whim. A lot of drug smuggling was done pretty much the instant the party left Imperial space. An Imperial colony may have been savagely enslaved and sold to aliens, only to be bought back later and given their freedom. An ancient human AI definitely was attacked to the point it self-destructed rather than leave its remains and its city as spoils to the crew. A saboteur on the ship was caught, lobotomized, made into a servitor and currently scoops up dog poop on the bridge. His name is Diddles. The ship is about to travel to an ill-omened system in search of a man who can sell them Warp Navigation charts so they can explore the system further and track down the Ork Freebooter Kaptin.

[Toaster]

Random thought question:

If I've never DMed before and wanted to try to do so for three players who haven't played any tabletop RPGs before, how much trouble am I likely to get myself into if I invented a quick and dirty system based off Roll to Dodge rules?  I'd rather not try to DM something like D&D that I've only ever played once before ages ago (as in 2nd edition ages ago.)  I have a sort of vague idea for system implementation in my head, but before I sit and flesh anything out I'd like to make sure I'm not biting off more than I can chew.

[MrRoboto75]

Random thought question:

If I've never DMed before and wanted to try to do so for three players who haven't played any tabletop RPGs before, how much trouble am I likely to get myself into if I invented a quick and dirty system based off Roll to Dodge rules?  I'd rather not try to DM something like D&D that I've only ever played once before ages ago (as in 2nd edition ages ago.)  I have a sort of vague idea for system implementation in my head, but before I sit and flesh anything out I'd like to make sure I'm not biting off more than I can chew.

You could probably make that work.

Maybe you should check out a game called Fudge, which is supposedly pretty simple, and only needs a handful of six sided dice.  Basic rules are free, too.

[Cruxador]

I'd agree except for the Tome of Battle.

Design-wise it's onlly sort of 3.5, but yeah, it does endeavor to do somethign about this.

First off, maneuvers are practically spells.

Not this fucking bullshit again. I thought people got tired of ill-conceived rants about this when we got a new edition to war over instead. And we have TWO new editions now. Fuck.

Most have supernatural or even spell-like effects (literally casting fire, bolstering teammates, removing status effects etc).[/quote]The ones that are supposed to be supernatural, yes. The ones that aren't, no. The book lists one of the most supernatural schools first, which can give a false impression, but the system overall isn't magical in nature.

So already we have all the complexity of a martial character,

ie zilch

plus the complexity of several lists of unique not-spells to cast.  Sorta like a bard...  Well, it gets a lot worse.  Many of these abilities simply replace a standard action, which is fine.  But then there are a bunch of lingering buffs/effects, "stances" which alter your combat rules passively, and then a huge set of "reaction" abilities which completely grind the game to a halt.  Oh, that ogre is charging at me?  Hold up!  I have Diamond Rhino Faces The Mountain or whatever, I get to roll to make it bounce off and fall down.  Let me just look up the specific roll, factor in my martial spellcasting "initiator" level...

You have specific actions you can do and you can assume specific modifier-sets. And it's all in D&D's tedious but simple system. It's only going to slow you down if you don't know what your character can do.

Warblades (like our barbearian) get the least spells known and prepared at once, but they can recharge one per round with a swift action "flourish"...  Or I think, simply by striking somebody.  Such bs.

Calling something bs without justification has as great value as saying "I dislike a thing", because that's literally all you're doing. Applying terminology from one system to another only makes sense when the systems actually work the same; when they don't it's disingenuous and all it really conveys is that you don't understand either system.

So yeah, these special snowflakes got their abilities back with a "short rest" before that was a thing, or the warblade basically just kept using them will-nilly.

Yes, a martial character can use his martial abilities "willy-nilly". How strange, to think that there's no arbitrary restrictions on sword moves!

These abilities that interrupted the game constantly.

They're part of the game. It's not like that guy that's on his phone half the time.

This was kinda frustrating as a cleric, and I don't know how the wizard felt.

If you think this is bad, you should try playing a martial character in a game with spellcasters. Tome of Battle brought martial characters up to a fraction of the level of casters.

it's broken as fuck.

For 3.5 standards, not really. Tome of Battle is definitely vastly less broken than the core player's handbook, anyway.

But that just really cheesed me off as a primary spellcaster, where any bit of multiclassing absolutely crippled my main ability.  Even the special prestige classes essentially had taxes on advancing in casting.

This is a separate issue, the systems aren't intertwined at all.

I think I see a lot of the Tome of Battle in PF and 5th edition, where I think these concepts were executed better.

It's almost like a decade of game design and playtesting makes a difference.

And spellcasters got in on the fun too (thinking of cantrips).

They did in 3.5 too, that's what Warlocks were.

So, as a total newbie to playing tabletop rpgs, what materials should I be expected to bring to a game group, such as a group at a local game shop? I'd think I would need for a pathfinder game to bring the core rulebook, character sheet + extra paper and/or notes on character + pencil, and a set of dice.

Since all my pathfinder shit is currently in pdf format I guess that means I'd need to take my laptop in order to bring along the rule books.

Maybe also some money to chip in for snacks, it depends on your group.

Are you the DM? It's typically on them to carry the books around. Usually we just use our phones/tablets to look stuff up if needed.

This is neither typical nor good manners for a player.

Random thought question:

If I've never DMed before and wanted to try to do so for three players who haven't played any tabletop RPGs before, how much trouble am I likely to get myself into if I invented a quick and dirty system based off Roll to Dodge rules?  I'd rather not try to DM something like D&D that I've only ever played once before ages ago (as in 2nd edition ages ago.)  I have a sort of vague idea for system implementation in my head, but before I sit and flesh anything out I'd like to make sure I'm not biting off more than I can chew.

Designing a system is harder than running a system you're unfamiliar with. If you want a simple system, I recommend Simple d6 but simple systems aren't the best choice for every group. Getting theatrical and roleplaying can be difficult, and not everyone has the confidence to do it right off the bat. A somewhat heavier system like D&D can provide framework that helps people like that, although alcohol can fill this role as well. A more beer-and-pretzels game with comedy aspects (like, for example, Risus) can also get people going well.

[Rolan7]

I did admit that the concept was good, and sounds like it was executed well in 5th and PF.  But in Tome of Battle they're practically a new branch of magic like psionics.  They have their own Knowledge check like Arcana, they can be cast in combat from "scrips", they're prepared through meditation...  They were clearly based on spells, even the ones that are only extraordinary.  That's not even a bad thing, just a bit hacky.

My problem with it was the way it screwed round economy.  The enemy turn got absurdly bogged down by the barbarian's counters, though to be fair he was already a trip-focused character with absurd range.  But even if was using strikes, the most straightforward abilities, they tend to rack up all sorts of weird status effects to keep track of.  Like not being able to make AoO, losing their move action, their weapon does -4 damage now...  And the stances and boosts are even worse.

Whereas my cleric and the wizard were basically just casting healing or evocation.  Practically every enemy was undead, so status effects were almost entirely impossible.  Eventually I adopted the Tome of Battle myself, and the wizard player made a shapechanging transmutation specialist, out of pure frustration with sitting on our thumbs all battle.

I can see some factors that would make our case particularly bad.  But really this is a *massive* bag of buffs to martial characters (without making casters less squishy at low levels).  A level 14 barbarian took a single level of warblade and essentially gained 8 levels of combat-casting.  A master of DPS *and* battlefield control *and* utility abilities like "moment of a diamond mind" where he got to use his concentration check for will saves.

Whereas my dual-wielding dervish (swordsage) was using Desert Wind boosts to get some extra d6s of fire damage on every strike, moving with a swift action via sudden leap, and...  Ah, yes.  Keeping a counter of crits because of Blood In The Water, which gave me a +1 to attack *and damage* for every crit of my dual laminated serrated scimitars.  Crit range 14-20.  Plus the "Shadow Blade" ToB feat (not to be confused with the Shadow Blade Technique in the same book) let me do dex to damage, so that was nice.
I'm not especially complaining that it was powerful, but keeping track of all the modifiers for even a single full attack was nightmarish since they changed every time I crit (and as a dervish, I was full attacking every round while moving).  And that's without any counters letting me act on the enemy turn!

But again, our case was particularly bad for several reasons.  I just don't think this was particularly well balanced, and I can't imagine it *not* slowing down the game a lot.  It wasn't fair to the other players.

[Cruxador]

Whereas my cleric and the wizard were basically just casting healing or evocation.

Well no wonder they weren't contributing much.

But really this is a *massive* bag of buffs to martial characters (without making casters less squishy at low levels).

Which is fine, considering martials were very weak and someone whose role allows him to stay away from the front lines doesn't need to be too tough.

A level 14 barbarian took a single level of warblade and essentially gained 8 levels of combat-casting.  A master of DPS *and* battlefield control *and* utility abilities like "moment of a diamond mind" where he got to use his concentration check for will saves.

And is still less powerful than a competently played druid, for example, who had a better range of abilities from level ~10. What's your point?

Whereas my dual-wielding dervish (swordsage) was using Desert Wind boosts to get some extra d6s of fire damage on every strike, moving with a swift action via sudden leap, and...  Ah, yes.  Keeping a counter of crits because of Blood In The Water, which gave me a +1 to attack *and damage* for every crit of my dual laminated serrated scimitars.  Crit range 14-20.  Plus the "Shadow Blade" ToB feat (not to be confused with the Shadow Blade Technique in the same book) let me do dex to damage, so that was nice.
I'm not especially complaining that it was powerful, but keeping track of all the modifiers for even a single full attack was nightmarish since they changed every time I crit (and as a dervish, I was full attacking every round while moving).  And that's without any counters letting me act on the enemy turn!

Most of that is stuff that you can put on your character sheet, though, and thus during play is abstracted as "my attack number". The only thing which isn't is your Blood in the Water modifier, which is one number that works the same way each time. If you have a hard time keeping track of what the number was, it would be easy to devise a physical token of some sort to keep it organized.

I can't imagine it *not* slowing down the game a lot.  It wasn't fair to the other players.

The same could just as well be said for magic, if you'd used it for anything beyond moving HP up and down.

[RedWarrior0]

DPS *and* battlefield control *and* utility abilities

Grease? Charm Person? Color Spray? Sleep? Silent Image? Ray of Enfeeblement? GLITTERDUST?[/i] Web? Invisibility (which can buff allies, as well)? Slow? Ray of Exhaustion? Haste? Fly? Stinking Cloud?

All of those are level 3 or less Wizard spells, all in core. I challenge you to make a level 5 character from Bo9S who can match that, or even higher for non-Bo9S martial characters. Not just in 1v1 combat (although Fly should make this easy except against someone with a significant money advantage), but in situations that actually show up. Non-combat roles. Dealing with a large number of enemies. Going around problems rather than through them.