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[Deus Asmoth]

Cheetar, why do you think my question was a defence rather than an actual question? I was curious about the thought process involved.

[Deus Asmoth]

Deus Asmoth:

Scintillant, one other thing: what's the difference between Shamrock's defense of misreading some of Scripten's posts and you justifying some of your actions by saying they're newb mistakes? Why is it scummy for Shamrock to call himself stupid but not so for you to call yourself a newb?

Now that I think about it, there isn't really a difference. That was hypocritical of me and it was my fault.

If you think it's suspicious for me to appear indecisive in one post, wouldn't it be considered suspicious that you changed your vote as many times as you did on day one?

Why did you want another extension to day 1 when the person you were voting for was going to get lynched, and why weren't you quizzing anyone else if you had misgivings about voting Shamrock?

Why did you want me to find questions you missed for you rather than reading back through the thread yourself?

Each time I changed my vote, I had a reason for doing so, namely receiving satisfactory answers to my questions. In your case, however, I see the indecisiveness as scummy. You said earlier that that's just how you talk when you're pressed for answers. Why would you need to be indecisive, and thus, in my mind, evasive, when you're being questioned? Only scum would need to be evasive.

Is this a rhetorical question? I've already told you that it's a speech habit that bleeds through to writing when I'm rushed, which I was when typing the response that seems to have made you decide I'm unwilling to commit to anything. It's also worth bearing in mind that that response was an answer to Dorsi asking me why I was acting over emotionally, which I didn't think I was. I don't see how anyone could be 100% certain about why they're making someone else think something.

The replies you gave when pulling your votes don't exactly make it seem like the answers were satisfactory. Your gut was telling you there was something off about Masked and you were still suspicious of Comrade, but rather than press them more you unvoted. Why?

[Cheeetar]

Cheetar, why do you think my question was a defence rather than an actual question? I was curious about the thought process involved.

You brought up Mask being likely townie in your read of him, and continued to state his likely towniehood after being questioned. That's why I read it as a defence of him, rather than a purely hypothetical question in Scripten's questioning of your read on him.

[4maskwolf]

I suppose I'm obligated to say this in every game as IC, even though that I can see you all aren't guilty of it:
Remember when dealing with the IC's and other long-term players that they are simply an experienced player.  While we have some amount of experience with the game, do not mistake this for knowing things perfectly clearly.  We can and do make mistakes, just the same as you do.

There are two extremes I've seen this go to.  The more common and visible of these is thinking that because of their experience, the IC's are out to get everyone else in the game.  This is simply not true: it is our job to teach, not to annihilate the new players.  I actually am the exact opposite when I start as IC: I avoid going full bore confrontational for Day One, to allow me to interact personally with each player without hostility, before kicking it into full gear on Day Two.

The other extreme, however, is more insidious and perhaps more damaging.  This is the belief that the IC's somehow see things more clearly than the regular players, and as such their beliefs hold more weight.  Remember that IC's are just as likely to be scum as any other player, and that it is our role to teach you to play, not to dominate the game.  We will play our best, obviously, but take everything we say with a grain of salt.

Good luck, and have fun.

[Scintillant]

Deus:

The replies you gave when pulling your votes don't exactly make it seem like the answers were satisfactory. Your gut was telling you there was something off about Masked and you were still suspicious of Comrade, but rather than press them more you unvoted. Why?

Other than the gut feeling, I didn't have much of a case against either of them after they addressed my concerns, so I unvoted. I view gut feeling as a reminder to keep them in the back of my head and pay more attention to their posts than I otherwise would. However, I don't see it as enough of a reason to keep a vote on them.

I've already told you that it's a speech habit that bleeds through to writing when I'm rushed, which I was when typing the response that seems to have made you decide I'm unwilling to commit to anything. It's also worth bearing in mind that that response was an answer to Dorsi asking me why I was acting over emotionally, which I didn't think I was. I don't see how anyone could be 100% certain about why they're making someone else think something.

Ok, I'll trust you on that.


Reads:

Scripten: Active, contributes, and arguments appear mostly solid. Town lean.

Deus Asmoth: Some questionable arguments during their dispute with Scripten. Slight scum lean.

Dorsidwarf: Contributing, no visible issues. Slight town lean.

4maskwolf: Active and contributing. Slight town lean

notquitethere: Not many posts, but with a lot of content. Null read so far.

Scintillant: Obviously town 

Cheeetar: Active, contributing, no visible issues. Slight town lean.

[Cheeetar]

Who's the most likely scum partner for Deus, Scintillant?

[notquitethere]

Scintillant

What exactly are you implying here? Are you implying that I was trying to get Comrade mislynched? You seem to be saying at first that my case against Comrade was good, but then go into observations about it and describe a possible scumtell. How do those three things relate?

I'm saying that on the surface it looks like you're offering a reasonable case, but by not addressing Shamrock directly you present your case in the way most favourable for scum. I'm not implying anything, I was describing what I saw.

At the top of your post, you vote Deus Asmoth. However, here, and throughout your post, you repeatedly accuse Scripten of having weak cases, bandwagoning, and general scumminess[...]

In addition, several of the arguments that you use to show Deus Asmoth's potential scumminess can just as easily be applied to Scripten. Why are you voting Deus, and not Scripten?

I have reasonable grounds to suspect that either Dorsidwarf is scum or Deus is (given that scum don't typically both vote for the same person on a D1 mislynch). That's a smaller pool to choose from the people that were on the Shamrock mislynch. Deus is the scummier of him and Dorsi, hence the vote. Doesn't mean I don't think Scripten is suspicious.

Do you particularly want me to vote Scripten instead?


Deus Asmoth

NQT I told Scintillant I didn't see any difference between his earlier defences and Shamrock saying he had made a mistake in reading Scripten's posts, and I put pressure on Crusader when his only justification for thinking Shamrock was scum was that he thought Shamrock was scum. That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.

I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.

As for not voting, if I had put a vote on Masked or Scintillant at a point when it wouldn't have made any difference, how would that have made me seem any less scummy to you?

It would have concretely demonstrated that you had suspicions. Also, players can do more than just passively vote one another. They can make attempts to sway and persuade other town when they believe there's a mislynch about to occur. Here, though, you mostly seem to be interested in avoiding looking scummy.


Scripten

It is passive aggressive. I can't tell if you're trying to garner more information from Scintillant by suggesting lightly that he was manipulating the vote or if you are trying to link his push back to me by suggesting that it was my questioning that led to him making that push. I don't necessarily think you are scummy for it, I just don't like that push and I'd have liked to see it be a little more direct.

I was just pointing out that it was a good scum technique (though not a technique that is particularly indicative of being scum). I find it interesting that you're reading so much into this.

Of course. Every day brings with it more information and thus stronger grounds for lynches.

And would you say your current case against Asmoth is stronger than your Day 1 case?

Exactly, but where do you think the suspicion for pro-scum questions being fielded should go? I'm certainly not going to scumread a newbie for answering an IC's rolefishing question.

I wouldn't make any strong claims of suspicion based on merely asking pro-scum questions as that's something town players (inadvertently) do all the time.

[Dorsidwarf]

Question time!
Scripten
Why are you defending scintilliant so hard? You're really going out of your way to defend him from the big bad NQT, you know. Insisting that his bandwagonyness, frequent lack of his own case, unwillingness to start his own cases, willingness to try and NL day one as soon as dumbo proposed it, followed by then unvoting and suspecting him for it. You keep insisting that he's town too -

Scintillant is more likely to be newbtown than newbscum. Look at his day 2 contributions, specifically.

- sans explaining, a sentiment which is repeated several times, to different people, including NQTs mega-analysis. Interestingly, barely a few posts on, you smack DA for saying they aren't scum, since

Scum also want to look like town. I wouldn't so readily discount another player as scum.

So, whats up with that? Why do you discount Scillinant automatically as scum, because he's new and not playing well, but decide that a different new player is definitely scum for playing badly, and advise them not to "discount" people as scum?

In short, why the hypocrisy, Scripten?

[Deus Asmoth]

Deus Asmoth

NQT I told Scintillant I didn't see any difference between his earlier defences and Shamrock saying he had made a mistake in reading Scripten's posts, and I put pressure on Crusader when his only justification for thinking Shamrock was scum was that he thought Shamrock was scum. That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.

I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.

If you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.

[Scripten]

NQT

Do you particularly want me to vote Scripten instead?

This slightly bugs me, since associative reads before a scum flip are problematic, but it suggests that NQT is indeed town. I can explain after Scintillant has responded to elucidate exactly what I mean. I'll be waiting so as to avoid corrupting his answer.

I was just pointing out that it was a good scum technique (though not a technique that is particularly indicative of being scum). I find it interesting that you're reading so much into this.

Your pushes are bugging me, to be honest. You keep making suggestions and it feels manipulative/scummy. I wish I had more meta experience with you to know your scum game better, since, as I said above, you do seem to show pro-town motivation. There's definitely a disconnect going on here, though I'm not sure if it's on your end or mine.

Of course. Every day brings with it more information and thus stronger grounds for lynches.

And would you say your current case against Asmoth is stronger than your Day 1 case?

Certainly. If nothing else, it's at least significantly more well-informed, considering we've have two town flips and have VCA to look at. (VCA stands for Vote Count Analysis. It's a useful tool at times.)

I wouldn't make any strong claims of suspicion based on merely asking pro-scum questions as that's something town players (inadvertently) do all the time.

We can't all be town. There's two scum, and I didn't have anything stronger. Just because town do certain things doesn't preclude scum from doing them. As SBC was an IC, I expected that he had enough experience to be asking pro-town questions rather than pro-scum ones. I was wrong, but I do not feel that my suspicion was misplaced.

Dorsidwarf

Why are you defending scintilliant so hard? You're really going out of your way to defend him from the big bad NQT, you know.

Actually, I'm scumhunting NQT and calling him out for manipulative tendencies that are consistent with scum play. Though my town read on Scintillant does make me disagree with him, the gameplay elements are wholly independent of that.

Insisting that his bandwagonyness, frequent lack of his own case, unwillingness to start his own cases, willingness to try and NL day one as soon as dumbo proposed it, followed by then unvoting and suspecting him for it. You keep insisting that he's town too -

Scintillant is more likely to be newbtown than newbscum. Look at his day 2 contributions, specifically.

- sans explaining, a sentiment which is repeated several times, to different people, including NQTs mega-analysis.

There's only two scum. Scintillant doesn't make sense as scum, his wagon would be way too easy, and his play, while newbish, does feel like it comes from a town mindset. I have a bit of a loose equation for establishing player psychology that I've stolen from players much better than me at Mafia. It goes like this:

Player motivation + Player alignment = Player's gameplay

From each post, you can sort of reverse engineer where a player is coming from. That's what I've been doing all game. Obviously, it's not foolproof, and it's not really a hard rule, but it's helpful for gaining town reads, which are as important as scum reads.

Interestingly, barely a few posts on, you smack DA for saying they aren't scum, since

Scum also want to look like town. I wouldn't so readily discount another player as scum.

So, whats up with that? Why do you discount Scillinant automatically as scum, because he's new and not playing well, but decide that a different new player is definitely scum for playing badly, and advise them not to "discount" people as scum?

Not the same thing. Deus Asmoth is playing with an anti-town mentality that is self-preserving, and my read on his psychology leads me to see him as a more methodical, logical town player who would recognize those anti-town quirks and stop them were he town. I'm not saying just that he's a suboptimal player and deserves to hang for it. I'm saying that his gameplay is consistent with what I see as his playstyle being motivated by a scum mindset.

Does that make sense?

[Cheeetar]

4maskwolf, I seem to be your only scum read. Why aren't you voting for me?

Deus Asmoth
<snip>
I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.

If you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.

It's never a mistake to gain more information, but while you are waiting for the responses to your inquiries you have free reign to be as active as possible. Be honest with people: "I'm really not sure if this person is scum or not! Why do you think they're scum enough to lynch them?". Encourage them to rethink the situation themselves. I won't lie when I say that it's incredibly scummy that you cite self preservation as a reason to not speak up.

[Deus Asmoth]

Not the same thing. Deus Asmoth is playing with an anti-town mentality that is self-preserving, and my read on his psychology leads me to see him as a more methodical, logical town player who would recognize those anti-town quirks and stop them were he town. I'm not saying just that he's a suboptimal player and deserves to hang for it. I'm saying that his gameplay is consistent with what I see as his playstyle being motivated by a scum mindset.

Is this from my play as a whole or just the no-vote on day 1? Because I'm definitely going to have to bring up my game if I'm consistently that bad.

[Scintillant]

Cheeetar:

Who's the most likely scum partner for Deus, Scintillant?

I don't really have any suspicions on this at the moment. If I was to hazard a guess, I would say one of the players that hasn't interacted with Deus much, like krusader/4mask, since not interacting with one another could be a sign that they're trying to avoid being associated with one another.

NQT:

At the top of your post, you vote Deus Asmoth. However, here, and throughout your post, you repeatedly accuse Scripten of having weak cases, bandwagoning, and general scumminess[...]
In addition, several of the arguments that you use to show Deus Asmoth's potential scumminess can just as easily be applied to Scripten. Why are you voting Deus, and not Scripten?

I have reasonable grounds to suspect that either Dorsidwarf is scum or Deus is (given that scum don't typically both vote for the same person on a D1 mislynch). That's a smaller pool to choose from the people that were on the Shamrock mislynch. Deus is the scummier of him and Dorsi, hence the vote. Doesn't mean I don't think Scripten is suspicious.

Do you particularly want me to vote Scripten instead?

I don't have a particular preference one way or the other, I just wanted to know the reasoning behind the vote.

[Cheeetar]

You read 4maskwolf as town, however. Have you changed your mind about him since you posted your reads?

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf, I seem to be your only scum read. Why aren't you voting for me?

Deus Asmoth
<snip>
I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.

If you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.

It's never a mistake to gain more information, but while you are waiting for the responses to your inquiries you have free reign to be as active as possible. Be honest with people: "I'm really not sure if this person is scum or not! Why do you think they're scum enough to lynch them?". Encourage them to rethink the situation themselves. I won't lie when I say that it's incredibly scummy that you cite self preservation as a reason to not speak up.

Because you are a soft scum read.  I'd trying to get a better feel for the field before I just vote someone.  I pressure voted you early on, and my scum read was based on something you had mostly answered.