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[Sergarr]

No, I legitimately haven't heard anything about them. If they're getting genocided there, they're doing it in a very stealthy way.

[Knit tie]

@Helgo: Poll.

I sure as hell could've posted a shitload of Russophone sources, such as this one, saying that Crimeans want to join Russia, most of which were written by Crimeans themselves, but I don't think you are not going to reject those out of hand as "propaganda."

Also your narrative neatly ignore that a mere 40% of Crimean wanted to join Russia (or even identified as Russians) prior to the Maidan. And that the Russian soldiers were presented as local militamen.

So what? Is it not possible for the Crimean populace to change its opinion due to being scared of the new government in Kyiv?

[smjjames]

nonono, the way I see it is that the FGR and GDR immediately (well, not so much immediately as it being a somewhat slower proccess) merged into each other when the Berlin wall fell because.... that's just how I view it.

No, I legitimately haven't heard anything about them. If they're getting genocided there, they're doing it in a very stealthy way.

Yeah, the focus has been on the Donbass, Donetsk, and Luhansk areas for a while.

[Sheb]

Well, the Tatar TV station was raided again a few days ago. Various Tatar activists have been deported from Crimea. The Tatar representative council thinky was raided and shut down a few months ago...

Not genocide of course (Despite all the parallels with that previous Germany from a geopolitical point of views, modern Russia in not evil.), but the situation of the Tatars certainly deteriorated under the new leadership. Not entirely surprising, since there was a distinct effort by Kiev to bring the Tatar back in order to weaken Crimea's russian identity. Still not nice.

@Knit Tie: from 40% in favor to 97% in favor? Seriously?

@smjjames: Well, sadly, reality is not as you saw it.

[Knit tie]

@Knit Tie: from 40% in favor to 97% in favor? Seriously?

We should also consider that when those 40% results were recieved, nobody really considered reunification with Russia a possibility. It was a far-fetched speculation, at most, back then. Don't you think it's likely that more pro-Russian people would say they support reunification with Russia when it's within grasping reach, as opposed to when it's just a fantasy?

Hell, have some Karlin on the topic.

[Sheb]

True, it could also be argued that that the vote was done after manipulating the local opinion: the Russian media were blaring about the "Fascist junta", and presenting the Kiev government as some sort of right-wing neo-nazi job, while Svoboda and the Right sector got less than 5% of the votes.

Don't you agree that legitimate, free elections require more than just a vote, like media access by both side?

[Knit tie]

By that logic, legitimate and free elections are almost nonexistent in the world, Sheb.

But speaking of Russia manipulating public opinion, I don't think that Russian control over the Crimean media could've happened without an overwhelming a priori public support, just as Russian "polite people" couldn't have infiltrated Crimea without the same overwhelming a priori public support.

Oh and by the way, the guy who is behind Colonel Cassad is writing a book on Crimean secession, I am honestly looking forward to it.

EDIT: You haven't read the link, have you?

EDITEDIT: Speaking of Cassad. So far, the rebel advance has stopped, the fate of the entire operation hinges upon the fate of the Debaltsevo pocket.

[Sergarr]

EDIT: You haven't read the link, have you?

At this point I'm pretty sure the only way for the West to listen to our point of view would be if we present it to them at a gunpoint.

Thus, we should try to accelerate this event into reality. This means making sure that the West considers Russia to be evil, because this will bring closer the war between us. The faster it occurs the less casualties there will be.

[MonkeyHead]

By that logic, legitimate and free elections are almost nonexistent in the world, Sheb.

This unfortunately is probably 100% true - especially when money meets media and political interest.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Considering the inability for Russia to conquer Ukraine [and ignoring all Russia has lost in influence and economic stability in order to accomplish what it has], with Ukraine's "weak" military, I wouldn't be so excited for that prospect. Then again, regime change is necessary.

By that logic, legitimate and free elections are almost nonexistent in the world, Sheb.

This unfortunately is probably 100% true - especially when money meets media and political interest.

Yes, money being used as influence in society is the same as creating votes out of thin air and otherwise having people 'vote' at gunpoint.

[Dutchling]

Hey, choosing between Russia and a bullet is still choosing!

[Knit tie]

EDIT: You haven't read the link, have you?

At this point I'm pretty sure the only way for the West to listen to our point of view would be if we present it to them at a gunpoint.

Thus, we should try to accelerate this event into reality. This means making sure that the West considers Russia to be evil, because this will bring closer the war between us. The faster it occurs the less casualties there will be.

BLOOD FOR THE BEAR GOD!!! SKULLS FOR THE TSAR THRONE!!! LET THE WASHINGTON BUUUUUUUUUUURN!!!

@Dutchling: I highly recommend you read that link I posted above.

[Culise]

But speaking of Russia manipulating public opinion, I don't think that Russian control over the Crimean media could've happened without an overwhelming a priori public support, just as Russian "polite people" couldn't have infiltrated Crimea without the same overwhelming a priori public support.

Actually, it's pretty simple.  When the polite men marched in, the first places they seized included the state television and radio broadcasting company.  The only independent television channel, Black Sea TV, was shut down in the beginning of March before the referendum, officially with no reason given, unofficially after threats levied against its journalists.  Five television channels assigned to Ukrainian television stations were blocked on March 6-7, and their frequencies turned over to Russian stations.  That's just for starters.  It doesn't require "overwhelming" public support to accomplish anything like this.  Just men with guns.

[Sheb]

Knit Tie: I did read the link. I still consider myself unconvinced.


Edit: Knit Tie, I must apologize for one thing. Sometime I think of you as a rabid, irrational nationalist. Then I read Mict's posts and I realize you're not that bad.

[MonkeyHead]

Considering the inability for Russia to conquer Ukraine [and ignoring all Russia has lost in influence and economic stability in order to accomplish what it has], with Ukraine's "weak" military, I wouldn't be so excited for that prospect. Then again, regime change is necessary.

By that logic, legitimate and free elections are almost nonexistent in the world, Sheb.

This unfortunately is probably 100% true - especially when money meets media and political interest.

Yes, money being used as influence in society is the same as creating votes out of thin air and otherwise having people 'vote' at gunpoint.

Corruption and oppression take many forms. In any case, I never said that it was the same. If you can find a democratic process that is totally unbiased and objective in any way, I would be literally dumbfounded. Those of us in the west may not get forced to vote at gunpoint, or suffer due to overt electoral fraud, as is the case in some places around the world, but if your representative is being paid by a lobbyist to act in their interests and not yours, its not as if your vote really mattered either.