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[mainiac]

Defining not being dickish to your neighbors as capitulation is pretty much the definition of aggressive nationalism.

[Knit tie]

I did a lot of looking into the things over there as told by the people living there,

What exactly do you mean? Did you read some Russian blogs? Books? Watched movies?

Anyway, all men are indeed brothers. I've always believed that.

-snip-

Well, my position of the situation is based on the view that Russia is merely trying to pursue its national interests, just like the USA is trying to pursue its national intersts, and since Russian and American national interests are mutually exclusive when it comes to Ukraine, a conflict occurs. Since none of the sides can claim moral superiority, I choose to support Russia because, ceteris paribus, it's my country. I also believe that opposing Putin isn't a very smart thing to do, however imperial his ambitions are, since Russia will be almost guaranteed another crisis of Gorbachev proportions if any of Putin's current opponents come to power, due to said opponents' incompetence and corruption. Supporting Putin is the best choice, simply because all the alternatives are even worse.

[Sheb]

Well, don't you agree that some means of pursuing one country's national interests should not be used? Setting up a civil war in your neighbor for example? Not saying that Russia is the only country doing that *cough* Iraq *cough*, but that doesn't prevent condemning its actions.

[Sergarr]

Spoiler: in other news, look at that beauty (click to show/hide)

[Knit tie]

Well, don't you agree that some means of pursuing one country's national interests should not be used? Setting up a civil war in your neighbor for example? Not saying that Russia is the only country doing that *cough* Iraq *cough*, but that doesn't prevent condemning its actions.

Civil war in Ukraine was entirely grassroots, I'd say. Russia's merely astroturfed the Donbass into not losing.

[Sheb]

It's funny, because I disctinctly remember you admitting that without the Crimean takeover and Streklov's actions, there wouldn't be an uprising in the Donbass.

[Baffler]

I did a lot of looking into the things over there as told by the people living there,

What exactly do you mean? Did you read some Russian blogs? Books? Watched movies?

Anyway, all men are indeed brothers. I've always believed that.

All those, plus making certain to read Russian sources in addition to western ones where it makes sense to do so.

[Knit tie]

It's funny, because I disctinctly remember you admitting that without the Crimean takeover and Streklov's actions, there wouldn't be an uprising in the Donbass.

I changed my opinion on that in light of seeing how similar conflicts, such as the Serbian Krajina war and to some extent the Spanish Civil war, unwound in the past and also how nationalistic and anti-Russian Ukraine's current party line is.

I did a lot of looking into the things over there as told by the people living there,

What exactly do you mean? Did you read some Russian blogs? Books? Watched movies?

Anyway, all men are indeed brothers. I've always believed that.

All those, plus making certain to read Russian sources in addition to western ones where it makes sense to do so.

I did pretty much the same thing with the USA back in the days of my (not really distant) youth. Although most people in the world can be said to understand the American way of thinking, to some extent, due to the overabundance of the American media in the modern pop-culture.

And during my escapades in that Swiss boarding school, I've understood that all people everywhere are fundamentally the same, and treating them as one would treat aliens or orks is misguided at best and shameless propaganda at worst.

[Owlbread]

Nowadays, while I don't deny Russia has problems, I recognize that it's hardly the evil empire that the press makes it out to be. Just like Putin is hardly an unpredictable madman drunk on power. It's simply a powerful country on the other side of the world, whose leader's interests run counter to my leader's interests. I don't think very highly of either lot of sociopaths, but I see there's no reason to dislike Russia any more than I do the USA.

Russia is no better or worse than America in terms of its exertion of power over its neighbours and its Imperialist aspirations.

So I take the same approach - which means I dislike the Russian state so much I would love to remove it and replace it with something(s) else. The world would do well to be rid of all Imperialist states - America, China, Russia, India, the UK... the list goes on.

Saying the Russian state is no worse than America doesn't mean you can't hate it.

[Helgoland]

It's funny, because I disctinctly remember you admitting that without the Crimean takeover and Streklov's actions, there wouldn't be an uprising in the Donbass.

I changed my opinion on that in light of seeing how similar conflicts, such as the Serbian Krajina war and to some extent the Spanish Civil war, unwound in the past and also how nationalistic and anti-Russian Ukraine's current party line is.

Where do you see similarities between Ukraine and 1936 Spain? Apart from foreign powers meddling I don't see any at first glance...

[Knit tie]

It's funny, because I disctinctly remember you admitting that without the Crimean takeover and Streklov's actions, there wouldn't be an uprising in the Donbass.

I changed my opinion on that in light of seeing how similar conflicts, such as the Serbian Krajina war and to some extent the Spanish Civil war, unwound in the past and also how nationalistic and anti-Russian Ukraine's current party line is.

Where do you see similarities between Ukraine and 1936 Spain? Apart from foreign powers meddling I don't see any at first glance...

Fascism/nazism vs. anti-fascism/anti-nazism ideological schism resulting in a civil war. The respective ideologies of the opposing sides are very similar between these two wars.

@Owlbread: What if I don't hate the Imperialist states?

[Helgoland]

One side sending aid and troops, the other adhering to the law of nations and not interfering directly... Knit, are you sure Russia ends up on the right side of that comparison?

[Knit tie]

One side sending aid and troops, the other adhering to the law of nations and not interfering directly... Knit, are you sure Russia ends up on the right side of that comparison?

The USA is supporting and outright patronising a staggeringly corrupt, totalitarian dictatorship with blatant neo-nazi tendencies, and Russia does not send combat troops, it sends instructors and advisors, just like the USA does. As for the aid, the USA aids Kyiv as much as Russia aids Novorossiya, it's just that American aid takes the form of money, rather than supplies.

[Owlbread]

I think we've been over the Fascist stuff before. Trying to force mid 20th century dichotomies like Fascism/Anti-Fascism onto a 20th century conflict between two ultranationalist factions doesn't work, especially when it's done lazily like in knit tie's post. Russia and the Donbass rebels can just as easily be identified as Fascists by their policies and actions as much as the pro-Ukrainian factions can.

The only example that sets some Ukrainian factions apart is the popularity of Nazi symbols and anti-semitism - but those are just as common in Russia among Russian ultranationalists e.g. skinheads. The Nazi paraphernalia is more of a "fuck you" to Russia's Great Patriotic War fetishism than anything else, and a way to hark back to WW2 to the Ukrainian factions that fought for the Nazis against Russia. Rather than being an indicator of latent intent to reorganize the state along corporate lines and so on it's more of a way of getting under the skin of Russians, something they have been quite successful in; for instance, notice as a moderate, liberal Russian like knit tie actually compares the conflict to the Spanish Civil War and his enemies to the dark forces of national socialism. 

Ultimately, like our debate about colonialism, the word "fascist" has so many interpretations and definitions that it's not going to fit here at all. I don't think Russia is Fascist. Putin is not a Fascist. The Donbass rebels are not Fascists. Similarly the Ukrainian troops are not Fascists, nor is the Ukrainian state. The word "fascist" is inadequate and can't really be applied because the aims, goals, ambitions and so on held by all parties have little to nothing in common with those of Franco, Mussolini, Hitler etc. Anybody suggesting such is oversimplifying things.

@Owlbread: What if I don't hate the Imperialist states?

You're welcome to hold that view, I'm not going to stop you.

[Knit tie]

I would like to disagree with you here, Owlbread, Novorossiya does not appear to be ultranationalist at all, as far as I see it. Ukraine, meanwhile, by now officially worships a Ukrainian nationalist named Stepan Bandera, who is known for creating an organisation that did nothing of any historical significance aside from ethnically cleansing Jews and Poles. Historical revisionism abounds as well, with Ukrainians now being an ancient, prooud, prosperous people perpetually oppressed by the evil katsapy.

But I understand yout concerns, Ukraine is not technically fascist, I agree. I'll still say that it's ultranationalist, with the main difference between it and other countries with ultranationalists in them being that in Ukraine, ultranationalists have prominent official positions in the government.