Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sheb]

Knit Tie: I agree that it's not really important to ascertain whether the deportation of the Chechens was really colonialism or not. But we're only having this discussion because you're trying to push the view that Russian colonialism was better than the other power's by trying to define all the bad bits as not colonialism.

[Knit tie]

Knit Tie: I agree that it's not really important to ascertain whether the deportation of the Chechens was really colonialism or not. But we're only having this discussion because you're trying to push the view that Russian colonialism was better than the other power's by trying to define all the bad bits as not colonialism.

That's not what I wanted to do. I wanted to argue that the Russian policy in Caucasus resembled that of Britian in the British Raj, rather than that of France in Algeria, but I, you and Owlbread got kinda stuck on the definition of the word "colonialism," which I define as "exploitative and negligent treatment of conquered peoples and territories," as opposed to treating them well, and you and Owlie define as "conquest and subjugation of one nation by another." I agree that if we use your definition of "colonialism," then we have to agree that Caucasus really was a Russian colony, and I have admitted this in the begining of our discussion, while also stating that if we use my definition of "colonialism," then we can say that many Caucasian territories and peoples were not, in fact, colonies as they were treated rather well by the Imperials, but for some reason you keep viewing me as a historical revisionist, which I am not.

Also, Owlbread, am I correct in thinking that you dislike the USSR for not being Communist enough?

[Owlbread]

I think the only Caucasian people genuinely treated well by Imperial and Soviet Russia were the Ossetians. Pretty much everyone else got screwed over in some way.

[Sheb]

Out of curiosity, how do you see the French actions in Algeria?

[smjjames]

Hm, would Guam be considered a colony? Military base though and all that.

[Knit tie]

Out of curiosity, how do you see the French actions in Algeria?

Not as bad as Belgium's actions in Congo, that's for certain! 

In truth, though, I am not really prepared to talk about this topic, as I haven't really researched it aside from reading about Abd al-Qadir ibn Muhyiddin's biography, and I admit that I shouldn't have used the French Algeria as an example of "bad" colonialism without knowing much about it.

I think the only Caucasian people genuinely treated well by Imperial and Soviet Russia were the Ossetians. Pretty much everyone else got screwed over in some way.

I think we need to take it into account that the Russian Empire was known for its poor treatment of peasants in general, so Caucasian peasants didn't really need to be viewed as inferior to be exploited, but that's just an unrealted aside, I still disagree with you there - Caucasus was inhabited by many different tribes and peoples, some of which were indeed oppressed by the Imperials, but there were also those who didn't mind the Imperial rule and those who welcomed it.

[Owlbread]

Hm, would Guam be considered a colony? Military base though and all that.

The UN recognises it as a colony: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories

[MDFification]

In fact, anti-Soviet sentiments were extremely rare back then, the current thrend of pouring mud over everything Soviet and glorifying the Russian Empire instead was born in the 90s from the state-funded propaganda campaigns that Yeltsin tried to use to justify his predecessor's dissolution of the Union and the resulting spiked anal dildo fuckfest in its former components.

Which is silly, because the USSR was essentially Russian Empire 2: Live Marxist or Die Hard. Anything crimes against humanity the USSR committed were just scaled-up version of things the Empire was already doing.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Also, Owlbread, am I correct in thinking that you dislike the USSR for not being Communist enough?

or not communist at all. all the pseudocommunist dictatorships of the cold war doomed the political system of the future to be viewed as a barbaric ideology of the past. a bit like what the russian 90ies did to democracy and american corporations are doing to capitalism

[Sheb]

Knowing Owlbread, he dislike the USSR for having a population of more than one. Everyone should be independent!

[Owlbread]

Also, Owlbread, am I correct in thinking that you dislike the USSR for not being Communist enough?

or not communist at all. all the pseudocommunist dictatorships of the cold war doomed the political system of the future to be viewed as a barbaric ideology of the past. a bit like what the russian 90ies did to democracy and american corporations are doing to capitalism

This.

The funny thing is though, oftentimes when I talk about the need to get rid of the "European" component in the EU and replace it with a Federation of Independent States I'm actually arguing for some kind of worldwide USSR where everyone has their own Republic - or whatever Gorbachev was talking about. Obviously I'm not happy with the USSR's democratic structures but you see where I'm coming from. The problem with the USSR was that it was based around the former Russian Empire, roughly and recognised as some kind of successor state - ideally the USSR should not have been recognised as a "nation" or a "country" but a federation of countries.

Does anyone know roughly how much autonomy the SSRs actually had?

[mainiac]

Not much autonomy thanks to Stalin.  If only Lenin had died a little sooner or a little later.

[smeeprocket]

Not much autonomy thanks to Stalin.  If only Lenin had died a little sooner or a little later.

Yea, Stalin really wrecked that train.

Lenin was somewhat of a brute too though. Just not compared to Stalin.

[Knit tie]

In fact, anti-Soviet sentiments were extremely rare back then, the current thrend of pouring mud over everything Soviet and glorifying the Russian Empire instead was born in the 90s from the state-funded propaganda campaigns that Yeltsin tried to use to justify his predecessor's dissolution of the Union and the resulting spiked anal dildo fuckfest in its former components.

Which is silly, because the USSR was essentially Russian Empire 2: Live Marxist or Die Hard. Anything crimes against humanity the USSR committed were just scaled-up version of things the Empire was already doing.

I would say that this is a gross oversimplification that ignores most of USSR's genuine achievements in the field of human rights and welfare. For starters, the Russian Empire was staggeringly negligent towards its peasants, leading to many, many less-developed regions in it having downright medieval lifestyles and living standards, while the USSR was, among other things, a welfare state without peer that spent inordinate amounts of resources and effort on massive infrastructure and social development projects, such as Likbez, for example, that have been very successful in raising the HDIs and the standards of living of the Soviet peoples, so much so that many former Soviet countries are still trying to reach the levels of these two things that they had back in the USSR.

Not much autonomy thanks to Stalin.  If only Lenin had died a little sooner or a little later.

Yea, Stalin really wrecked that train.

Lenin was somewhat of a brute too though. Just not compared to Stalin.

I'd say that this is a gross oversimplification as well, as Stalin's rule still saw much autonomy from the local governments, if not from the different members of the Politburo.

[Sheb]

And that Lenin was quite the control freak in the first place too.