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[Ukrainian Ranger]

Yeap, that kind of bullshit is fun

Nationalists participated in revolution = nationalists made a revolution.
Nationalists participate in the war vs Russia = only nationalists wage war.

[Knit tie]

23% is good enough for me.

After all, the Right Sector + Svoboda have about 6% of the votes, yet they've carried our the whole revolution in Ukraine all by themselves.

It doesn't actually matter how many people vote, what matters is how many people are ready to fight to defend their believes.

History is decided by the winner, after all...

Yes but Putin is a lizardman who rules all of Russia with mindwaves so I can make up bullshit too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Sergarr]

Yeap, that kind of bullshit is fun

Nationalists participated in revolution = nationalists made a revolution.
Nationalists participate in the war vs Russia = only nationalists wage war.

Without nationalists to combat policemen, the Maidan would have been dispersed. Or do you seriously think that normal common people are trained in street anti-police warfare?

[da_nang]

23% is good enough for me.

After all, the Right Sector + Svoboda have about 6% of the votes, yet they've carried our the whole revolution in Ukraine all by themselves.

It doesn't actually matter how many people vote, what matters is how many people are ready to fight to defend their believes.

History is decided by the winner, after all...

Yes but Putin is a lizardman who rules all of Russia with mindwaves so I can make up bullshit too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a lizard, I'd like to distance myself from that... poser.

[mainiac]

Yes you need to have rigorous training before you know how to die to sniper bullets.

[Vilanat]

So russia is selling oil for USD, then use those USD to buy gold from their own mines? i seem to remember there are few economists here and i would love to hear what makes those transactions a brilliant master plan for russia.

[Erkki]

But I'm tired of playing nice! It doesn't prevent sanctions and economical attacks, while preventing our victories!

The current "compromisal" strategy of Kremlin is literally the worst possible strategy one can do in that situation. They should've either not done anything at all, or they should've rushed the Ukraine while its forces (and forces of their European allies) were still unmobilized and unprepared. By partially invading and stalling, they're showing their utter incompetency and maybe even stupidity bordering on treachery, which is not actually all that suprising coming from a bunch of corrupt oligarchs.

The Putin has managed to seriously devaluate his words by first preparing for war in the April/May, by using all that "our soldiers will hide behind donbass citizens" rhetoric, and also (as I recently learned) doing things like canceling vacations for medics near the potential front-line.

If only he carried through his intentions, we wouldn't have this total clusterfuck on our hands right now. Should've put our Western "partners" before a fact of conquered Ukraine, and started negotiations from there.

What Western allies? Ukraine is a NATO's partner, true, but then again so is every other European nation. West will be happy to sell UA weapons, however some countries have laws against selling weapons to countries in war, and just "instability" has counted before(Israel). Some nations will send advisors and some material for free, mainly Eastern Euro ones: they're have their own interests(of not being eaten, instabilized etc.) of course.

I would not be so sure that Russia even had the capability for a full blown out war and direct confrontation with good enough odds back when Crimea was annexed. Russia didnt have division-scale forces in combat readiness(=in excercises) at UA-RU border back then.

And what Russian victories? Like you said yourself before, Russia is grabbing small scale military victories and some land with her right arm and shooting herself in the leg with the other. Globalisation sucks for Russia now.

[Helgoland]

Knit, what's a salnik? I found a translation for vatnik, and right now it applies to you more than to UR... In a rather intellectualized way though.

[Knit tie]

Knit, what's a salnik? I found a translation for vatnik, and right now it applies to you more than to UR... In a rather intellectualized way though.

Salnik = derogatory term for a devout Ukrainian patriot. Sometimes used affectionately by other salniks, just as pro-Russian occasionally call themselves vatniks.

I am wondering, how am I a vatnik, though?

[Helgoland]

Using this definition. 'Loves his motherland' certainly applies to you, and there's little difference between 'dumb' and 'willfully ignorant' in the 'seeing but disregarding' sense: You repeately stated that all this is not about what's good for Russia, but about what's good for, speaking bluntly, the Russian national ego. Of course you jump through some intellectual hoops to justify your position or at least to analyze and dissect it, so there may be some subtleties I'm missing.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Spoiler: BTW Vatnik looks like that (click to show/hide)

[Knit tie]

Using this definition. 'Loves his motherland' certainly applies to you, and there's little difference between 'dumb' and 'willfully ignorant' in the 'seeing but disregarding' sense: You repeately stated that all this is not about what's good for Russia, but about what's good for, speaking bluntly, the Russian national ego. Of course you jump through some intellectual hoops to justify your position or at least to analyze and dissect it, so there may be some subtleties I'm missing.

With all due respect, Helgo, I think that your anti-nationalist (sorry if I am using wrong terminology here) German upbringing has left you a tad biased towards people who hold onto irrational, nationalistic ideas. As I've mentioned in the terrified thread, defending the Motherland has always been a big part of Russian national identity, with sacrifice on one's life in a war to defend one's people being one of the greatest acts of heroism, and so I, and many of my compatriots, are not supporting the Donbass rebels, and, by proxy, Russia, out of blind jingoistic pride like your statement seems to imply, but because the Donbassians have allied themselves with Russia, and in doing so, became someone we ought to protect, even if our sacrifices will be ultimately futile and our cause will not be objectively just. Consider the kinship you told me you felt with secular Syrian rebels and Euromaidan activists - I feel the same kinship with the Novorussian separatists. It's not based on anything rational, but rather is an integral component of my system of values, similarly to how belief in democracy is an integral component of yours. I'd say that I am not being ignorant, even willfully, because I fully acknowledge how questionable, morally and otherwise, my position is to an external observer, and realise that I am not doing the right thing in the sense of Bismark's realpolitik.

To clarify, when I mentioned "Russian national pride" earlier, I didn't mean it a sense of 19th century imperialistic ambition, but rather in a sense of this moral imperative to defend our own.

Spoiler: Salnik, for comparison (click to show/hide)

[Helgoland]

I guess I disregarded the 'redneck' bit in the definition a little too much... There's many different ways of 'loving blindly', you're right.

[Knit tie]

I guess I disregarded the 'redneck' bit in the definition a little too much... There's many different ways of 'loving blindly', you're right.

BTW, one of the big difference between the Anglo-Saxon and the Asian ways of thinking I've noticed is that the Anglo-Saxons are more inclined to believe that there is only one absolute truth, while Asians (to which I ascribe Slavs, in mentality sense) are more predisposed to believe that there are many subjective truths, instead.

Regarding vatniks, though, one of he main qualities of a vatnik as defined by the Russian internet users is an irrational belief in his country's superiority, rather than just devotion to it. For example, a vatnik would doggedly insist that Russian legal system is the best, while a more rational patriot would acknowledge its faults.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Note how vatniks have zero creativity and just copypasted vatnik image with minor modification. Not that this Salnik term is widespread, in fact the first time I heard that term is from Knit tie

__________

As for the "irrational  nationalism" bullshit. Many things in human mind are irrational. Love is irrational. When husband kills wife out and explain that  he did that because he LOVED her but she cheated him and adds that judge never loved anyone and has no right to imprison him..... This is not love, guys. And it is very similar to Russian excuses for their actions in Ukraine