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This game is dead!

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Author Topic: Ye Gods 1 OOC [21/∞] Talk here  (Read 442026 times)

Andres

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2520 on: December 11, 2014, 04:32:44 pm »

Stick to first argument then? The second one was intended to be an optional extension.
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gman8181

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2521 on: December 11, 2014, 04:53:50 pm »

Shrug.

Personally I just don't see why a separate set of rules for uncreating compared to perma-killing is needed.

Not sure if I'm missing the point though.

I'm also concerned about uncreating becoming just a very direct and somewhat uncreative means of perma-killing. By that I mean instead of finding a difficult opponent, planning out a way of defeating them, then finding a way to perma-kill them. One might just say "uncreate y for x essence" and then be done with it.

Edit:

Like I shouldn't just be able to use it by saying "Uncreate HoDo killer for however much essence it costs."
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 04:57:51 pm by gman8181 »
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DreamerGhost

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2522 on: December 11, 2014, 05:16:08 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think that is all. Anything left out is either entirely irrelevant or no longer there. I wrote things as I remembered/found them, so the list is not in a chronological order. Should I make it in chronological order?

Edit: there are also gremlins and 5 angels, yet those were created from raw templates that were already there.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 05:18:02 pm by DreamerGhost »
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Andres

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2523 on: December 11, 2014, 05:52:12 pm »

Like I shouldn't just be able to use it by saying "Uncreate HoDo killer for however much essence it costs."
Uncreating a being still requires the assistance of three other gods, so it's still complicated.
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Kilojoule Proton

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2524 on: December 11, 2014, 06:00:51 pm »

Spoiler: Creation: (click to show/hide)
Ama, DreamerGhost: Creations added to list. Chronological order isn't that significant, so it's fine. The main thing including timestamps does is it allows me to search for the creation far more easily.

$$$Response
Magical sapphire spear of ice: Is it made of sapphires or is it made of ice or is it made of both? What does it do?
Uncreation: Roughly creation cost with upgrades
The entity known as Tykki will be permanently uncreated. Ununcreating spawns an ever-so-slightly different clone (seeing as the unique template was uncreated, there wouldn't be a significant price hike). I think this balances not restricting actions and preventing cheap tricks sufficiently well.
Perma-killing: You subverted this at least once, and that seriously undermines and devalues the perma- prefix. This will also require further consideration, but I am leaning toward interpreting attempts at recreation as violating the Ersatz rule in some way.
Perma-uncreating: I'm a bit nervous about having a set price for this given how protective everyone will probably be about possible variations in price. I'll think about it a little more.

The in-game justification for the collaboration requirement for uncreation is that removing everything about the target and uncreating it is extremely complicated and difficult to do. It's almost like the difference between an apoptotic cell and a detergent-lysed one. In the former case, it's fairly neat and orderly and keeps nasty things organized and safe. In the latter case, various dangerous components can potentially leak out, endangering nearby cells. There's probably a better analogy somewhere, but I'm not that good at coming up with them. The meta-game justification is that I don't want the richer gods to uncreate the corporeal dimension just because they got bored trivially.
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gman8181

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2525 on: December 11, 2014, 06:12:31 pm »

Uncreating a being still requires the assistance of three other gods, so it's still complicated.

I guess. I just don't like the limitations it imposes regarding the inability to recreate something you like if you lose it. Honestly I'm not even particularly fond of Perma-Killing. My ideal "Perma-Kill Penalty" would just be that you can't recreate something with the same memories. Not that you can't recreate something that's otherwise identical with the same personality and even name.

So kind of like what you did IC before with your two angels except I don't think they should have been allowed to regain memories. Only personalities. Edit: abilities and skills too, just not memories.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 06:23:55 pm by gman8181 »
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Vgray

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« Reply #2526 on: December 11, 2014, 06:14:58 pm »

Hm. Made of sapphire and the tip freezes anything it comes into contact with.

And I just realized why that is bad. Hm.
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Kilojoule Proton

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2527 on: December 11, 2014, 06:16:55 pm »

I wonder if this has anything to do with that desert...

$$$Response
Magical sapphire spear of freezing (not too magical): 2E
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gman8181

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2528 on: December 11, 2014, 06:22:33 pm »

The meta-game justification is that I don't want the richer gods to uncreate the corporeal dimension just because they got bored trivially.

This is where I get confused. If three gods work together, they could uncreate the corporeal dimension together with enough essence theoretically. I alone, with a similar amount of essence, would not but wouldn't I be capable of doing enough damage with that kind of essence that it would destroy the corporeal dimension anyway if unopposed? That's kind of where I feel like the whole topic is odd. So maybe depending on how it's implemented, the only difference is that no one would be able to recreate reality if it was permanently uncreated but they could recreate it if I just destroyed it? Or it's harder to defend against uncreation than destruction?

I feel like just regular destruction already fills in fine for uncreation. The latter only adds more limitations and shortcuts that feel sort of unneeded to me. The uncreation idea in the first place just seems like a method of destroying things without actually destroying things and then limiting recreation of them which I don't particularly like the concept of.
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Kilojoule Proton

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2529 on: December 11, 2014, 06:33:47 pm »

I don't really know either. I'm a bit doubtful on whether uncreation is a good mechanic to implement at this point given how much insanity may result from spite and over-competitiveness. I need some time to think of the consequences of the price especially, because it's either far too expensive or far too cheap for too many classes of things. It would probably help if you all could try joining in and calmly discussing it, because it'll affect you as a whole a lot more than it affects me.

Maybe it would work if uncreation were treated as nothing more than a special case of destruction? It still seems somewhat unimaginative and possibly disruptive to have something that completely bypasses other considerations. I won't stop you all if you all want it that way, but it just seems a bit strange after further consideration.

It is at this point that I turn to more experienced competitive-game GMs (i.e. those with any previous experience at all, seeing as I had none before this) for advice.
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Vgray

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« Reply #2530 on: December 11, 2014, 06:52:39 pm »

$$$
Matching sapphire shield of freezing.

Let's see, creations, creatures first, I should be able to remember them.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Andres

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2531 on: December 11, 2014, 07:32:37 pm »

Maybe uncreation should be a controlled form of destruction? When you destroy something you destroy something, but when you uncreate something you destroy it but you also stabilise it in such a way that nothing is affected.

Perma-killing: You subverted this at least once, and that seriously undermines and devalues the perma- prefix.
One of us managed to get passed a permakill!? How? When?

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gman8181

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2532 on: December 11, 2014, 08:12:01 pm »

My opinion:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One of us managed to get passed a permakill!? How? When?
You did something similar to my suggestions in this thread. When two of your major angels were perma-killed you created new ones with the same names and powers. You then transferred memories of the old angels into the new ones to make them for most purposes identical. I'm fine with this technique up until the last part which under my proposed rules shouldn't be possible. I'm against memory transplants from Uncreated or missing persons to currently present persons. To an extent though, I'm fine with an angel being more or less aware of anything its god knows. So the new angel could be aware of the old angels and things about them but shouldn't actually have their memory.
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Andres

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« Reply #2533 on: December 11, 2014, 09:21:57 pm »

The difference between permakilling and perma-uncreating is that permakilling leaves a body. Something that ought to be considered is that a killed or uncreated character can be revived or recreated. A permakilled or uncreated character cannot. Reviving/recreating is cheaper than creating, or at least that's how I think it should be (maybe because of the propagation clause?)

When two of your major angels were perma-killed you created new ones with the same names and powers.
They weren't permakilled. They were just killed. If they were permakilled there would've been a suffix that said (perma) like when Tory and Lee were killed in the Second Crusade by Tykki.

An alternative to all this is we simply get rid of the idea of permanence. Perma just seems to be an arbitrary thing we created and its existence isn't justified in any in-game way. I think we should actually go with this idea.

Maybe uncreation could simply be a method of killing? Yeah. That's pretty simple. No fancy-pants memory stuff or whatever - just ending that particular being.

EDIT: Yes, Stirk, I fully understand that the memory thing was my idea. There are actually people out there who can realise that something they said might've been wrong and are honest enough to call themselves out on it. Besides that, I said from the beginning that the memory thing was a less than optimal solution.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 09:24:48 pm by Andres »
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Quartz_Mace

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Re: Ye Gods OOC [13/∞] Sign up/talk here
« Reply #2534 on: December 11, 2014, 09:47:17 pm »

$$$Price Check$$$
Creating my own angel who is a fire-breathing dragon?(with no wings)
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