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Author Topic: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)  (Read 27381 times)

Jumping_Trains

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Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« on: September 27, 2014, 03:09:23 pm »

...that doesn't even involve murdering children, although that would certainly lessen the burden of all these useless freeloaders.

I've always been somewhat irked by the way fey moods work. I like the concept, but I really dislike the mechanic of a successfully catered to mood circumventing years of dedicated labor in a heartbeat. Which is to say, after those years of dedicated labor my carpenter/smithy/etc has finally achieved a true mastery of his art... only to have some random novice immigrant outclassing them and become a legend within a week of arriving without having once stepped foot into the workshop until that very moment of inspiration. I really rather prefer the concept of a dwarf having to spend years, even decades, perfecting his/her art, and being rewarded for that effort.

My suggestion would be that rather than a successful mood bumping the dwarf in question up to Legendary status, that it instead bumps them up just a step or two (which would be the only way for a Dwarf to rise from Grand Master to Legendary), and more importantly, generates a permanent innovation/invention/improvement in the creation of whatever item they made thenceforth. For instance, they might permanently increase the value of all hatches created by the craftspeople of your fortress, or the speed with which they're crafted, or the ease with which they're made at a higher quality. Or it might spawn the innovation of having all future iron that's smelt to possess somewhat improved statistics. Or axe blades that strike with more force or better cutting ability. Or beds that create slightly happier thoughts when slept in, or reduce the time a dwarf needs to sleep in them to feel fully rested.

Also, I would suggest in tandem with this, that the chance for inspiration to strike be linked to the Dwarf's Analytical Ability, Creativity, and their skill in the craft. So a master smith with amazing intellect and creative drive is phenomenally more likely to spawn a new innovation for your fortress than a dumb and unoriginal novice.

Edited to Add:

As part of why I think is is an optimal solution, is that it results in a more unique experience with each new fortress. One site may end up innovating the reload speed or damage of its crossbows, resulting in a focus for that fortresses' militia on its marksdwarves, becoming renowned throughout the land for their expertise. Or your fortress may invent more valuable clothing items, swaying you to focus more on clothes as your primary export and turning your citadel into the fashion hub of the Dwarven world.

It would also open up the possibility that, as time passes and knowledge of your expertise in some area expands, caravans have an increasingly likely chance of offering to purchase the secret to your innovation. If you adhere, you'll cash in, but over time as the tech diffuses throughout the world, the edge you gained will disappear. However, if you stubbornly decide to horde your knowledge, others may try more underhanded ways of stealing the technology, requiring you to carefully guard your recipe for a more nourishing and tasty fish soup.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 03:31:35 pm by Jumping_Trains »
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2014, 04:22:30 pm »

That would take quite a long time to make effective, probably have some weird effects, such as studs or secondary handles on crossbows, and the suggestion about not boosting them to legendary seems a bit odd. They're normally going to whatever they're already skilled in, so that shouldn't really be a problem, unless you don't like craftdwarves. And they already work for months, why have them work for years for a negligible boost that could be made faster in normal crafting? The way the strange moods work now works mostly fine, but additions onto current knowledge, like doors that marksdwarves can shoot through, ways to make crafting faster for that mooded dwarf, smaller changes, would be great. But getting rid of the legendary boost, and making them take years, would make them somewhat useless and frustrating. At least, that's my view on the matter. I can see a lot of spots where bugs could arise, but that happens even with adding a custom beak to something.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2014, 06:28:31 pm »

I already know that I'm going to have moods/artifacts turned OFF in my next fort, and possibly all forts to come, unless the whole system goes through a major revamping.
  • I don't like receiving the boost to Legendary, which strongly pressures me to metagame the system by (possibly unrealistically) grooming my dwarves for moods, rather than general work.
  • I don't like not receiving the boost to Legendary, simply due to the random chance of a possession.
  • I don't like the way that the dwarf lives or dies based on items that you might have no way to obtain. (My current fort has zero access to shells, from any source.)
  • Artifacts are so expensive that I can't give them to anyone without traumatizing my duke.
  • The ONE purpose of crafts is to be sold, and artifacts cannot be sold.
  • Artifacts are frequently made out of nonsensical materials.

What I'd like to see instead:
1) Most moods should grant the same experience as creating 10 regular items, multiplied by the square of the moody dwarf's current level of the skill in question. This would effectively penalize players trying to "cheese" the system by grooming low-level dwarves toward artifacts, because a Novice Armorsmith would gain only 1/4th of the experience that an Adequate Armorsmith would get, or 1/9th of the gain received by a Competent, a mere 1/100th of an Accomplished, etc.
1b) The experience given by an artifact's construction should not be awarded completely to the skill of working with the base material. A Mason who builds a Throne decorated with brass, jewels, wood, and bone should also gain experience in Metalcrafting, Gem Setting, Wood Crafting, and Bone Carving, again proportional to the dwarf's pre-mood level of skill in those fields. The skill gain from the decorations on an artifact should probably have a lower multiplier than the base item (maybe 25-50%), but it should still be noticeable.
2) I'm fine with different types of moods awarding different amounts of experience, but the amount shouldn't be zero. Even if you get possessed and a foreign entity takes control of your limbs, you could still probably see what's going on, and learn at least a little bit from it.
3) Moody dwarves who are unable to obtain a desired material should suffer an unhappy thought--NOT death. Being forced to use a substitute material (say, pyrite instead of gold beryl) should cause a smaller unhappy thought than have to forego an entire ingredient because you couldn't even find an acceptable substitute (e.g., no shells at all). If a desired item (such as black bronze) does not exist, but the dwarf is able to make it as a preliminary step, the dwarf should do so.
4) The value of an artifact should be similarly dependent on the original skill of the creator. I suggest it should cost the same as a normal item of its type, except that the value of the base construction and all subsequent decorations are multiplied by the creator's level of skill in each of the respective fields. In this way, only artifacts created by the most skilled dwarves will be as insanely expensive as most artifacts currently are.
5) All artifacts should be salable--but only to one's own civilization. This will cause both happy and unhappy thoughts for the creator, with a net negative result: Yes, the people of the Mountainhome will be able to see and marvel at the wonder, but what if the artifact was lost, or even destroyed, upon the way? Both of these thoughts will refresh every month until the return of the outpost liaison, who will personally tell the creator if the artifact arrived safely (the worry about the artifact stops recurring, but the pride of having his creation on display in the capital lasts forever) or if it did not (the creator suffers intense emotional devastation, quite possibly going melancholy or berserk).
6) Artifacts should be limited to the same material selection as normal items--they might possibly have a slightly larger range of possibilities, but only slightly. [Granted, the list of viable materials for various types of items does need expansion & revision, but that's a separate matter.] I can see a dwarf creating (say) a tin shield, or an ice statue, or a soap amulet, but not an entire door carved from the bones of one cat.
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Jumping_Trains

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2014, 06:55:14 pm »

That would take quite a long time to make effective, probably have some weird effects, such as studs or secondary handles on crossbows, and the suggestion about not boosting them to legendary seems a bit odd. They're normally going to whatever they're already skilled in, so that shouldn't really be a problem, unless you don't like craftdwarves. And they already work for months, why have them work for years for a negligible boost that could be made faster in normal crafting? The way the strange moods work now works mostly fine, but additions onto current knowledge, like doors that marksdwarves can shoot through, ways to make crafting faster for that mooded dwarf, smaller changes, would be great. But getting rid of the legendary boost, and making them take years, would make them somewhat useless and frustrating. At least, that's my view on the matter. I can see a lot of spots where bugs could arise, but that happens even with adding a custom beak to something.

I love craftsdwarves, hence my suggestion of a way to make them even more important to a Fortress. As it stands, as SixOfSpades discussed, as a player I'm incentivized to metagame moods, as well as to abandon certain industries until one of my otherwise useless novices pops a mood for that skill.

I'd counter that it wouldn't make them useless or frustrating, it would add rather a sense of accomplishment. If it took a dwarf several years or more to go from being a novice to a grand master or legendary, it would make that achievement, as well as the creation of masterpiece items, that much more special. As it is, it's expected that a significant number of your dwarves will randomly end up legendary, and that your fortress will be full to the brim with masterpieces, with no real control on the player's end as to which dwarves or in what industries, outside of metagaming your starting expedition. This new system would rather incentivize the player to specialize their dwarves, foster their growth as craftspeople, to expand industries where they want to gain innovations by having multiple dwarves building up their skills in them, etc.

From my own experience in programming, I think it would actually be relatively easy to implement. I also don't know where the idea is coming from that there would be weird effects, as every possible effect would be coded in explicitly. It wouldn't just add random aspects onto items. For crossbows, there would be a set number of possible innovations, for doors another set, etc. So a possible innovation on a crossbow wouldn't be an extra handle, it would be, say, an improvement on the base accuracy, or ranged damage, or melee damage, or production speed, or trade value of all crossbows created in your fortress (or possibly only those created by those your mooded dwarf has specifically taught the technique to).

Sorry if I didn't make my initial post more clear!

...

A lot of this is somewhat outside the scope of my suggestion, but I do like your suggested changes, although the exponential growth creates the issue of diminishing returns once you have enough skill (you can only increase so much from Grand Master before hitting the cap), so there'd be a sweet spot you'd want your Dwarves at where they can gain the most. I think my idea of having the likelihood of a mood striking being linked to skill would solve this issue while incentivizing highly skilled dwarves, as well as being realistic. I find it hard to believe that someone with only the most tangential experience in a field could end up creating an artifact renowned throughout the world. It should take months and years of refining and honing one's craft.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 06:57:26 pm by Jumping_Trains »
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 04:19:18 am »

Toady has expressed his dislike for the current strange mood system (calling it too 'gamey') and plans on changing it, the only question being where 'artifact' items should come from instead.

Perhaps, instead of the current system (where the game first decides to create a strange mood, then selects a dwarf to carry it out), the source of artifacts could be within the dwarf's own mind instead.  Only a dwarf that has the dream of creating a great masterpiece could create artifacts, and as they grow more skilled in their selected craft, they become more likely to become inspired.  However, the 'flash' of inspiration can only occur in the event of a major source of emotion: a marriage, the birth of a child, the death of a close friend, the beginning of a vendetta, a victory over a hated enemy.  Instead of depicting more-or-less random events or being decorated with more-or-less random materials, the form of the artifact - and the materials needed in its construction - should be directly related in some way to the event that inspired it.  Instead of dropping everything to create the artifact or die trying, the dwarf should grow gradually more agitated until the materials needed to create the artifact are available, at which point they should grab them and make the artifact.

For instance: "This is EternalMemory the Claw of Foes, a steel spear.  It is encircled with troll tooth and decorated with cat bone.  On the item is depicted a dwarf and a goblin.  The dwarf is striking down the goblin.  This item was created by Urist McAngryWeaponsmith in commemoration of the death of his best friend, Lolok McCatlover at the hands of the goblin Olog McTrollkeeper."

Artifacts created by player fortresses will probably be much rarer with this system, but they should be more memorable to the player as a result.  Also, it will make artifacts being created in worldgen make sense, where historical figures will occasionally make artifacts related to important events in their lives.

SixOfSpades

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 01:56:31 am »

...
A lot of this is somewhat outside the scope of my suggestion
Yeah, sorry, apparently I had an "artifact rant" that I needed to get out before I could properly process your suggestions. Let me get on that . . .

. . . would be the only way for a Dwarf to rise from Grand Master to Legendary
Good, but let me elaborate a bit: All skills progress normally, but are capped at Grand Master, unless the dwarf has created an artifact using (primarily) that skill. The same holds true for military skills, but the requirement is killing a (semi-)megabeast: At the moment that the beast is slain, the game looks at the dwarf's highest offensive skill, and unlocks "Legendary" for that skill. (This is to prevent the awkwardness of your Grand Master Speardwarf not being able to become a Legendary Speardwarf because she happened to finish the Dragon off with a kick.)

Quote
. . . more importantly, generates a permanent innovation/invention/improvement in the creation of whatever item they made thenceforth. For instance, they might permanently increase the value of all hatches created by the craftspeople of your fortress, or the speed with which they're crafted, or the ease with which they're made at a higher quality.
Interesting. On the whole, though, I'd be slightly against these incremental changes, because I'd rather see something else, which I'll get to in a second. Things like crossbows firing a bit faster, or beds that increase their users' Stamina, are all well and good . . . but they're probably not things that the player would actually notice. Yeah, each fort you make would be different from all the others, just not in a terribly appreciable way. Although I do like your idea about quality: Perhaps, after somebody makes an artifact hatch, no quality-less hatches can be made ever again--the lowest possible result is a -hatch-. If some other dwarf makes another artifact hatch, the worst hatch that can be made jumps up again, to +hatch+. And so on.

But what I'd really rather see, what could make each individual fortress undeniably unique, would be strange moods that unlock new Technologies. A Weaponsmith could open up Bimetallic Construction: Maces can now be made of steel weighted with platinum, giving (approximately) the best of both worlds, and swords could be steel and iron folded together, giving a hard cutting edge that's less likely to break during use. An Herbalist could develop Herbal Medicine, increasing stamina, toughness, and disease resistance throughout the fort. A Clothier might invent Armor Padding, additionally slowing incoming blows. A Bowyer could come up with Laminate Construction, dramatically improving the penetrative power of all new bows & crossbows. Perhaps a Consoler will come up with Psychological Counseling, or a Comedian Stand-Up Theater. A Wound Dresser could discover Antibiotics. A Military Tactician (yes, I know) might come up with Camouflage, or the strategy of Defensive Retreat, or the combat technique of Crippling Blows. A Mechanic could invent Clockwork. A Bone Setter might develop Physical Therapy. A Grower might discover Composting. A Dyer could . . . um . . . well then, a Wood Burner might . . . er . . .
(crickets)
Okay, so not all professions are conducive to developing new technologies. And not all moods need produce artifacts, either: If your Diagnoser develops Immunology, technically you'll get a vaccine out of it (with the ability to research others), but that's not a physical object that you can see. And some moods may unlock different technologies, depending on the type of artifact produced: Maybe you mason will make an artifact Statue, that (once hooked up to a power source) sprays mist in a 5-tile radius. This will open up the Fountain technology, allowing any Mason to make a Fountain that (if powered) spreads happy thoughts more widely than a regular Statue. Or maybe the Mason will construct an artifact Gaming Table, which cannot be eaten off of, but acts as a natural magnet for dwarves with some free time for chess, cards, or dice, with happy thoughts for the players & onlookers. Or this same Mason might develop a Door instead--that can only be opened with a specific key. This Door, and all new Doors produced in the fort, can now use the Tumbler-Pin technology, allowing the player to designate the "ownership" of a door (just as beds & the like already are): Only those explicitly authorized to open a Door can do so (Building Destroyers excepted, of course). The goal is to come up with so many unlockable Technologies (and/or so few moods) that any two of a player's forts will likely have only a small amount of shared overlap between them, thus increasing uniqueness and replay value.

Quote
Also, I would suggest in tandem with this, that the chance for inspiration to strike be linked to the Dwarf's Analytical Ability, Creativity, and their skill in the craft. So a master smith with amazing intellect and creative drive is phenomenally more likely to spawn a new innovation for your fortress than a dumb and unoriginal novice.
Just so. Also, as you said, a major benefit of this is that the greater the chance that moods go to high-level dwarves rather than low-level ones, the more likely you are to get a mood/artifact/technology in areas that you actually use/need, making the game more responsive to your (fort's) style of play.

Another benefit of tying technological innovation to moods is realism. In similar city-building war games, like Starcraft and Age of Empires, you choose to invent a brand-new technology, and you know ahead of time exactly what it will cost, how long the research will take, & what you'll get out of it at the end. But that's bullshit. You can't schedule inspiration, you don't know how many costly failed attempts there will be, and you have no idea when--or even for sure if--you will reap the fruits of your investment. But if new ideas only come from moods, and moods are almost entirely the domain of dwarves that are already high-level, then if the player wants technological advancement he can only do what a real-world overseer must do: Keep throwing resources at his R&D department--his smartest, most imaginative, highly skilled workers--and hope for the best.

Quote
. . . the exponential growth creates the issue of diminishing returns once you have enough skill (you can only increase so much from Grand Master before hitting the cap), so there'd be a sweet spot you'd want your Dwarves at where they can gain the most.
Well, technically there are 5 effective levels beyond Legendary (or, at least, that's what I hear), they're just not displayed. But now that I've had more time to play with the idea of moods opening up new technologies, I don't really care about the EXP gain anymore, the tech is the important thing. Let the dwarves keep advancing through the ranks as always--but until she has a mood, your Legendary+5 will only be displayed as a Grand Master+6.


Only a dwarf that has the dream of creating a great masterpiece could create artifacts, and as they grow more skilled in their selected craft, they become more likely to become inspired.  However, the 'flash' of inspiration can only occur in the event of a major source of emotion: a marriage, the birth of a child, the death of a close friend, the beginning of a vendetta, a victory over a hated enemy.
PERFECT. Well, almost; personally, I would not have the dream of creating a great work of art be an absolute requirement (even if dwarves are allowed 2 or more dreams), because inspiration will often strike a person who wasn't looking for it, or indeed even expecting it. I'm not even opposed to a dwarf getting a mood in the less advanced of his two moodable skills: Okay, so this Master Bone Carver suddenly got a great idea for an epic poem. It happens sometimes.

I would also add less immediate emotional triggers: The killing of a number of fortress dwarves (whether the moody dwarf knew them or not), the slaying of a LARGE number of enemies in pitched battle (whether the moody dwarf was involved or not), the news of the death/marriage/first child of an out-of-fort friend or family member, the news of the death of the monarch and/or sack of the Mountainhome, a battle with a megabeast, or (my favorite) when a dwarf against whom the moody dwarf has a Grudge or professional rivalry, suddenly achieves one of the moody dwarf's hopes & dreams. More gradual prompts should also be included: A dwarf might get a mood/create an artifact because he's afraid a rival might beat him to it, to win the heart of a potential lover, to win glory for herself, or merely because they believe so deeply that they OWE it to the community. When judging propensity to fall into a mood, the game should consider as many of the dwarf's personality traits as possible, including their religious faith: If a Mechanic happens to be a fervent worshiper of the god of hospitality, he should not create an artifact Spiked Cage Trap that opens up the Camouflaged Pitfall Trap technology.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 02:13:38 pm »

Come on, Jumping_Trains & I can't be the only ones thinking about this. Let's hear your thoughts on "unlockable" technologies or other advancements hidden behind moods.

Here's some new ones:
Glassmakers could invent Mirrors, allowing you to bring sunlight to even the deepest recesses of your caverns without the need for a direct vertical shaft, and also develop Lens-Grinding technology, opening up Telescopes that can give you advance warning of creatures about to enter your map.
But here's a real game-changer: After a Mechanic develops the Block & Tackle technology (paving the way for things like Elevators), a Fisherdwarf could come up with the Diving Bell technology. Even better, after a Pump Operator invents the Piston Pump (allowing you to build Fire Wagons, which can be wheeled into place and spray water from a pressurized container), a Fisherdwarf could get an epiphany for a Diving Helmet. Actually building stone constructions underwater, however, will probably have to wait until a Mason discovers Cement.

Additionally, certain already-existing aspects of Fortress Mode could also be moved "behind" moods, especially if they're little-used, a bit too outdoorsy or elven for proper dwarves, and/or relatively high-tech. Beekeeping (& thus Wax Working) and Minecarts are two good examples. And if/when Toady reworks alcohol (Making wine or beer is a same-day service? Say what?), I hope that he'll break Brewing, Vinting, and Distilling into 3 separate skills--if so, dwarves could start with only 1 of those (I'm thinking Brewing, as beer is way more dwarfy than wine), leaving the other 2 to be discovered.
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Antsan

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 04:10:29 am »

The problem I see with inventions that they'd either need to be procedurally generated (which I imagine to be quite hard and prone to pretty weird results) or in the raws/hardcoded, which essentially limits the amount of moods one can have per civilization/fort and moodable skill (that seems too predictable for my tastes).
I'd prefer incremental changes to item types.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 05:02:17 am »

The problem I see with inventions that they'd either need to be . . . or in the raws/hardcoded, which essentially limits the amount of moods one can have per civilization/fort and moodable skill (that seems too predictable for my tastes).
I'd prefer incremental changes to item types.
They'd all be (relatively) hardcoded aspects of the game, yes, but if there's a HUGE number of possible inventions, which ones you'll get become far less predictable. I'm trying to compile a list of about 250 discoverable technologies . . . assuming roughly 50 moods per fort, this gives a ratio of about 5 to 1. Certain inventions, which are deemed more "basic" than others, could be weighted more heavily, creating a sort of "Common Core" that most forts will develop--but apart from that, it all depends on which industries you favor . . . and even if you do 3 forts in a row with a heavy emphasis on things like Armorsmithing & Weaponsmithing (and who doesn't, really), you STILL stand a good chance of researching different metalworking tech in all 3 forts. That's the plan, anyway.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with incremental improvements, I just want something a bit . . . sexier. To me, it's the difference between
"Oh, good, my guy made a mace. All maces made from now on have a 33% chance of being bumped up one quality level upon creation."
and
"Awright! He invented Flanged Mace! All maces made from now on have a 10% chance to cut into an enemy's [SHAPED] armor and tear holes in it, perhaps even ripping that piece of armor completely off!"
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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 08:56:22 am »

Just leaving my thread similar to this here. There are plenty like it though http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122443.msg3998351#msg3998351
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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 10:35:23 am »

I already know that I'm going to have moods/artifacts turned OFF in my next fort, and possibly all forts to come, unless the whole system goes through a major revamping.
  • I don't like receiving the boost to Legendary, which strongly pressures me to metagame the system by (possibly unrealistically) grooming my dwarves for moods, rather than general work.
  • I don't like not receiving the boost to Legendary, simply due to the random chance of a possession.
  • I don't like the way that the dwarf lives or dies based on items that you might have no way to obtain. (My current fort has zero access to shells, from any source.)
  • Artifacts are so expensive that I can't give them to anyone without traumatizing my duke.
  • The ONE purpose of crafts is to be sold, and artifacts cannot be sold.
  • Artifacts are frequently made out of nonsensical materials.

1. Good point on that.

2. That's part of what makes it fun, IMO.

3. I've never actually run into any (that I can remember) moods that required shell, however, I try to get shell via whatever means possible, be it a FB shell or even armadillo.

4. You can put artifact furniture in public spaces if you have more than one. Also, you do realize that you can modify the oil presser into a display case to display stuff?

5. That'll probably have to wait until the caravan/trade arc.

6. Isn't that the whole point of artifacts? To be made of materials that normally wouldn't be used to make that item? I do agree that the materials used can be rather strange, like a statue made from cat bone, or even a mace made from cow bone (seriously), but that's part of the fun.
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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 09:35:44 pm »

I've never really paid attention to moody dwarves. when one starts making a candy weapon, one can only wait to find out if it's an artifact candy maul or artifact candy longsword. Dwarves should have at least THAT amount of thinking.

"Oh, I have found this awesome superlight blue stuff called candy and I have a sudden urge to make a weapon that relies on weight to damage the enemy."
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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 09:45:35 pm »

I am in favour of retaining moods, because they do throw people off balance, but I like this idea as well. Why not both? For example, a special workshop dedicated to innovation/research/!!SCIENCE!!/whatever where dorfs work, slowly racking up progress, until they make a breakthrough or are struck with a sudden inspiration, in which case they make huge progress in their field of research.
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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2014, 07:13:38 am »

Hmm... I agree that moods should be reworked as mentioned earlier, such that they depend on individual dwarves being struck with inspiration, rather than the game's internal timer deciding a dwarf should be selected. I like the idea of the emotional moods, but I think there should also be "inspirations:"

When a dwarf gets an inspiration mood, it should be a passive state. In fact, calling it a mood would probably be a misnomer. Anyway, when they get all inspired, they should carry on working normally, but start making a request for some material every now and again. If they can't get the materials they want, they get a bad thought, and if they do get the material, they spend a little time working on their project. They make more and more requests as time goes on, and the cumulative bad thoughts possible from getting none of their requested materials should be able to drive them insane, but this should be pretty unlikely. They don't leave the inspired state until they finish their creation, but, as I said before, they can still do stuff the player orders them to do, they just take time off and/or get a bad thought every now and again (so a dwarf who desperately needs shell for his innovative new take on the loincloth, but can't get it, would be a bit less useful and a bit more mopey, but not necessarily doomed to die). When they make their fancy artifact, it bumps forward a few stats of its item type for the whole fort as detailed in the OP, and has those same stats slightly higher than the new standard because, I mean, it's an artifact.

The other possibility for an inspired dwarf is that they go through the same process, but make a book rather than an object linked to their profession, and this book contains the secret to some major-ish technological advancement. This could be equivalent to three times the stat advancement from a normal artifact object, or something entirely new, like high boots for a civ which only has low boots or something, or a new technique for smoothing walls that shaves down time taken by 25%. The possibilities would probably need to be put into the raws as SixOfSpades describes, at least until Toady can figure out a system for procedurally generating non-retarded items, technologies, and reactions. Of course, they would also request materials relevant to their profession when writing the book, for research purposes, but these could be finished items as well and need not be consumed by the process.

I also support the idea of artifacts being necessary to unlock legendary status, but I'm not certain this should be anything more than cosmetic. i.e. they can be functionally legendary but they're "only" referred to as Grand Masters.

Also, artifacts and inspiration should not be limited to one per dwarf. A dwarf with a personality particularly wired towards inspiration (incredibly rare, and would need all variables aligned) could be able to do make a new innovation every other year as often happens in real life with pioneering craftsmen, and a dwarf should be able to work on more than one project at a time.

However, this shouldn't be exploitable to the point where one dwarf becomes an artifactory. Maybe there should be a minimum of 2 years for project completion and a maximum of three concurrent projects, or something. I mean, in 34.11, I had every hauler, labourer, farmer, cook, brewer, and soldier spend a month knocking out crappy breastplates in the magma forges, and thanks to that, every one of my militia captains had a full suit of artifact armour. I think this sort of thing should be achievable, but very, very difficult.

The degree of technological advancement unlocked by the dwarf should be entirely dependent on their level in the skill they're working with, as should the chances of the dwarf being struck by inspiration, and I also like the exponential growth in xp gain. I agree that everything should be geared towards dwarves who are already at a high level in a skill, and I think every bonus one gets from artifacts should be reduced immensely by spreading out skills among unspecialised dwarves.

AND I JUST REALISED THE BEST PART:

This could completely solve the tech advancement issue. Toady could make all civs start out with only the most basic technology and let them develop their own stuff during worldgen through this system.  Since historical figures should be able to make artifacts and thus gain the tech advances for their civs during worldgen, if you start at year 1 or so you'd be constantly trying to figure out how to make armour better than the goblins or weapons that can pierce the goblins' armour. You could start a fort where the only item of clothing available is the loincloth and the only weapons are wooden spears and sharp rocks, and take your dwarves from their stone age settlement to a high tech fortress.

DO. WANT. This is the most realistic tech advancement system I've seen suggested yet. Even if advancements are only unlocked rather than procedurally generated, which advancement you unlock is decided procedurally. I'm incredibly excited by the idea of a fortress which goes from stone age to the industrial revolution.
TOADY MAKE THIS HAPPEN PLS
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SlyStalker

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Re: Innovations! (Or: A Modest Proposal to Change Strange Moods)
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2014, 11:07:07 pm »

AND I JUST REALISED THE BEST PART:

This could completely solve the tech advancement issue. Toady could make all civs start out with only the most basic technology and let them develop their own stuff during worldgen through this system.  Since historical figures should be able to make artifacts and thus gain the tech advances for their civs during worldgen, if you start at year 1 or so you'd be constantly trying to figure out how to make armour better than the goblins or weapons that can pierce the goblins' armour. You could start a fort where the only item of clothing available is the loincloth and the only weapons are wooden spears and sharp rocks, and take your dwarves from their stone age settlement to a high tech fortress.
+1000000 THIS IS THE GREATEST IDEA I HAVE EVER SEEN. It ties in technology, artifacts, historical figures, civilisations and world gen! Skullsploder, you sir, are a genius.
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