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Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Frumple]

The more important part isn't what hell is (we all know that it's just not a good place)

I'd... actually kinda' disagree? To it being the most important part, or at least to it being something that can be disregarded for other considerations.

To me, at least, how YWHW punishes people -- especially those who by most measures have done no wrong (good non-believers, ferex) -- is of significant import to whether union with or worship of that being is desirable or morally acceptable. S'like, on a personal level, if the traditional conceptualizations of hell are accurate (eternal torture for the vast majority of mankind), on that basis alone I would have to consider YWHW a thing of extreme evil -- not something I could conscionably worship, y'know? Because there is nothing but horrific cruelty involved in such a punishment, and no creature which would mandate it could be anything but monstrous. And to support a monstrous thing willingly is to be monstrous yourself. Not something I aspire to

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

If Earth is Hell, then... Wouldn't Hell not be a punishment? If you don't connect to God in the first place, you lose nothing. It'd just be a reincarnation.

Heh. Maybe thats where all those reincarnation beliefs come from. Its people dying and going to Hell. AKA right back to Earth.

Hell is a different place than earth and hell is worse than earth as it is not just eternity with ought god but it is also an eternal punishment, now what that is is debatable


@Frumble- I can see where you're coming from l, that god saying all who do not worship and fear me will burn for eternity, is a pretty bad thing. But from my perspective it's not all that bad considering that he's not the one that started it, he's not the one that separated man from him/god.
Man is at fault for the seperation and for that we have sin and sin is what keeps us seperated, now Jesus came down and sacrificed himself as a pure being and an ultimate sacrifice. What I see in this is God sent himself down to his creation that was basicaly doomed to an eternity in hell which they brought on themselves and god going, "ok here's my purity, let it wash away your sin and make you clean in my eyes again" (that is not an actual quote but just an attempt at what was meant)
So I don't think it's monsterous when he is not the one that caused it and still sacrificed himself to try to finish it with the one requirement of accepting the sacrifice.

PM me on this if you want, Not saying we can't discuss it here but might keep me from over posting here

[Telgin]

The kicker being that He didn't have to put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden in the first place, or set up any number of the other events required for humans to fall in the first place.  He did all of that knowing that we'd fall too, so...

[Biowraith]

Man is at fault for the seperation and for that we have sin and sin is what keeps us seperated

I'd very strongly disagree with this.  God created Adam and Eve without knowledge of good and evil.  Therefore they had no way of understanding the concept that eating from the tree of knowledge was wrong even if God himself had just told them that it was (they'd have to eat from the tree to gain the knowledge required to understand that).  Therefore they'd have zero reason (due to a lack of understanding baked into them by God) not to eat from that tree. Then he puts the tree of knowledge within reach of Adam and Eve - he could have put it anywhere, or never created it in the first place. 

It was utterly inevitable, as part of God's design - his design of them, of the tree, of the whole system - that they would eat from that tree and initiate the original sin.

Furthermore the way that sin works - condemning not just the direct sinners but everyone that's ever born further down the line - was his design and intention too.

Man's separation and inherent sin is 100% part of God's deliberate design.

[Bohandas]

since there's three or four different conceptualizations of hell (fire, darkness, separation, destruction, and probably others).

Ironic punishment,  "Other [damned] People", and mormon preachers are three others.

[Il Palazzo]

@Frumble- I can see where you're coming from l, that god saying all who do not worship and fear me will burn for eternity, is a pretty bad thing. But from my perspective it's not all that bad considering that he's not the one that started it, he's not the one that separated man from him/god.
Man is at fault for the seperation and for that we have sin and sin is what keeps us seperated, now Jesus came down and sacrificed himself as a pure being and an ultimate sacrifice. What I see in this is God sent himself down to his creation that was basicaly doomed to an eternity in hell which they brought on themselves and god going, "ok here's my purity, let it wash away your sin and make you clean in my eyes again" (that is not an actual quote but just an attempt at what was meant)
So I don't think it's monsterous when he is not the one that caused it and still sacrificed himself to try to finish it with the one requirement of accepting the sacrifice.

This is just solving a problem of his own making. Dan Barker summarised this argument rather scathingly in one of his talks. Here's the excerpt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lyxL2nx5cw

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I'll have to talk to my youth pastor on that



But isn't it just as likely that Adam and Eve would have burnt down the tree instead of eating from it? Or that it took something telling them to eat from it for them to actually do it, They never even thought to eat from it until something told them too and Adam was told to not let either one of them eat from the tree but he didn't stop Eve or himself from eating and further more when they gained their knowledge they ran and his from god and lied to him

I think the running, hideing, and lieing to god were all within their new found knowledge and if the actual eating of the fruit wasn't the original sin then this was.

As for condemning all sinners, how was god supposed to keep man from teaching his children to sin?
Think about it, do you have to teach a child to lie? Or do you have to teach a child to be honest?
Do you have to teach a child to how to be disobedient? Or do you have to teach them how to be obedient? We bring sin upon ourselves because it is our nature

[Cheeetar]

Who decided Man's nature- god, or Man?

[smjjames]

Who decided Man's nature- god, or Man?

Proto-man, obviously, and no I'm not talking about Adam and Eve, or a superhero.

[Helgoland]

Now you've made me imagine the superhero Proto-Man, who is essentially a fetus with a cape...

[Orange Wizard]

I, uhm, what?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Who decided Man's nature- god, or Man?

Man decides
You can choose to be against your nature but any person that says they don't struggle with sin (anyone this isn't just Christians, and when I say sin I do mean the 10 commandments and such and yes *non Christians struggle with the same stuff) We as humans will always sin on this side of eternity. We have the choice to change but we do it anyways and we know what we do is wrong but we still do it.



*As for non Christians, I'm sure you all know that the 10 commandments cover more than just religious stuff, they also set up basic laws such as; Don't steal, don't murder in cold blood, don't cheat on your spouse, and don't hate your neighbors. I think we can agree that those are not bad rules to follow even if we aren't christian. So even being non religious does not exempt you from having a sin problem.

[Il Palazzo]

Sure it does. The concept of sin is meaningless outside religion.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Sure it does. The concept of sin is meaningless outside religion.

This is a christian beliefs discussion so non of what i said was outside of that discussion, I was talking about non christians in a christian view.

[Frumple]

As for condemning all sinners, how was god supposed to keep man from teaching his children to sin?

Well, there was apparently a lot of potential tools. Angels, manifestation ala Streaker J or the burning bush, direct communication... plenty of ways to teach. Damning everyone to sin is about the most pants-on-head way to go about it that can exist. When you don't want people to get paint on them, dousing everyone with paint is about the worst way possible to encourage that. Why we don't seem to get much of those methods nowadays is a different question, but it's fairly obvious that if YWHW-as-described wanted to teach directly, it could.

Think about it, do you have to teach a child to lie? Or do you have to teach a child to be honest?
Do you have to teach a child to how to be disobedient? Or do you have to teach them how to be obedient? We bring sin upon ourselves because it is our nature

Neither, to both of those. Both lying and honesty, obedience and disobedience, are things that arise normally, generally through observation. They don't really need to be directly taught, and, indeed, they are usually most powerfully taught by action -- a child does not learn honesty by being told to be honest, they learn honesty by watching their parents and peers be honest. There's also many cases where lying is not a sin and disobedience is a virtue. The important part is not to teach honesty or obedience, but to teach when it is time to speak truth and speak falsity, and when it is time to listen and time to disregard.

And that... that is not due to the nature of man, per se. It's largely due to the nature of our environment. We must lie and disobey because the world has manifested in such a way that lying and disobeying at times is the best of possible actions. Given plenty and no reason for conflict, the vast majority of people do not seek conflict and harmful action. Were it not for the many ills this world inflicts on us, most of us would not sin. And the world was created by YWHW, by christian belief...