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Should other religions be added to this thread?

No
Only Judeism
Only Islam
Yes to both Judeism and Islam

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Author Topic: Christian beliefs and discussion  (Read 192960 times)

TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #990 on: October 07, 2014, 10:00:10 am »

My personal problem with reincarnation is the issue of personal identity. When body dies, what makes you you dies too, irregardless of whether you've got a new body at the end of it.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #991 on: October 07, 2014, 10:23:34 am »

My issue with reincarnation is that if you are not aware of it, have you actually been reincarnated? With no knowledge of the event, there is no way to distinguish between the first time you have existed, the 17th, the last, or the only time.

Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #992 on: October 07, 2014, 10:39:45 am »

My personal problem with reincarnation is the issue of personal identity. When body dies, what makes you you dies too, irregardless of whether you've got a new body at the end of it.
... does it? Or, more explicitly, does it entirely? People are somewhat prepositioned towards certain behavioral patterns, even outside of environmental influences -- definitely not much, in most cases not involving radical brain structure abnormalities, but somewhat. It's also entirely possible that the process of reincarnation (somehow) leaves you in a body/situation that will produce a person very similar (not identical, of course -- most forms of reincarnation I've seen do posit some sort of change between incarnations) to your last incarnation. A sort of, "Round Two, FIGHT" scenario involving characters that randomize slightly every round but are still largely the same competitor. Incidentally, I think I'd totally play a fighting game where you weren't entirely sure how many limbs you'd have this match.

And @MH, there's various disciplines and whatnot for "connecting" with/learning about previous lives, with varying degrees of "success". Almost certainly just hallucinations -- sometimes rather vivid and/or self-induced -- at best, buuuuut many of the people that believe they've experienced the phenomena think it's real enough. Considering there's very few ways to prove or disprove their claims,* and almost certainly no way to do so with certainty for all of their claims, well... E: Well, you mostly just pat them on the back and let them believe what they believe, at least until they start digging up ancient buried treasure or something.

Badly off topic, though. I know there's at least some christian denominations that believe in reincarnation to one degree or another, but I have no clue about their doctrinal or theological stances. Mostly just that they exist, and at least one believes in limited reincarnation that occurs until... whatever their rapture equivalent is.

*You'd have to have someone who believes they lived a past life (and remember some/all of it) that was thoroughly documented enough someone could check their details, and then find some way to confirm the person in question had never encountered said documentation -- and even if they get it all right, coincidentally accurate WAG is a possibility. And getting it wrong could just be inconsistent narration -- the documentation being wrong.

Documentation of that sort is almost entirely nonexistent, currently. Another three or four hundred years and maintenance of facebook archives or whatever and that might change, but it's pretty impossible at th'mo.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 10:48:09 am by Frumple »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #993 on: October 07, 2014, 10:59:26 am »

There's also the fact that so many of these "memories" involve death.  A man who has vivid "memories" of bleeding out after giving birth in a stone hut, and stopping a machine-gun burst in No-Man's-Land isn't able to give any details about that "life" even if it were real, and both events were so common that there's no way you could track it down to a specific person anyway. Of course, there's also no way to simply duplicate the former to check the memory, and shooting someone to see how accurate their past-life memory is seems a bit excessive.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #994 on: October 07, 2014, 12:08:59 pm »

... yeah, and Frumple, lets not forget that the burden of proof is not on those of us that are sceptical to go out and disprove the claims made, but instead is on those making the claims of knowledge of past lives.

Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #995 on: October 07, 2014, 01:01:47 pm »

*shrugs* And they have all the proof they need, in most cases. Not enough to prove it to someone else, s'far as I know, but with that sort of thing that's... not really necessary, from the believer's standpoint. If you've seen a jackalope you've seen a jackalope even if you can't find or catch the ruddy thing, s'far as you're concerned. Other people are perfectly correct to claim you crazy or hallucinating (you probably are or were), but you've seen what you've seen.

Being skeptical and disbelieving a claim is notably different from the claim being wrong, heh, and if the other person(s) involved hold a different standard of proof than the skeptical it's- well, basically a non-conversation. There's not terribly much else able to be said, because if two folks are operating off different standards of proof convincing one another can become something between incredibly difficult and impossible.

And so we pat them on the back and let them believe what they believe until they either don't or they start digging up buried treasure or whathaveyou. It's another one of those things that don't really change anything and no one can provide sufficient evidence to prove or disprove.

Proof does go both ways, though. S'true that the burden of proof lies on the claimant, but lack of that does not mean the skeptical can say the claimant is wrong -- just that they have not been provided sufficient reason to believe the claim, and thus (rightfully) ignore it until otherwise convinced. Not proven does not mean disproven in this sort of situation, it instead means either <Insufficient Proof> or <Not Applicable>. E: Which is almost unfortunate, because if things didn't work like that epistemology would become a metric fuckton more straightforward.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 01:07:46 pm by Frumple »
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mastahcheese

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #996 on: October 07, 2014, 02:09:04 pm »

That's why I don't really like talking about my experiences regarding the issue.
I feel I have reason enough to believe it, but I'm not going to waste time trying to convince other people because I know I have no tangible proof.
So meh.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #997 on: October 07, 2014, 02:28:26 pm »

You might convince other religious believers. They know what that's like more than the likes of me :P
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tahujdt

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #998 on: October 07, 2014, 02:47:28 pm »

There was this lady (I'm told) at the church we went to in Virginia when I was really young who thought that I was someone who had been reincarnated a bunch of times because I had "old, wise eyes."
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mastahcheese

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #999 on: October 07, 2014, 03:10:10 pm »

I posted my experience in the terrified thread somewhere.
I may drudge it up when I have my laptop.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1000 on: October 07, 2014, 03:12:40 pm »

I think i may change this to a general religious discussion thread
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1001 on: October 07, 2014, 03:13:46 pm »

I think i may change this to a general religious discussion thread

Speaking for myself, I like it as it is :/
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1002 on: October 07, 2014, 03:14:26 pm »

There was this lady (I'm told) at the church we went to in Virginia when I was really young who thought that I was someone who had been reincarnated a bunch of times because I had "old, wise eyes."
Of course. Because wisdom isn't based on memories/knowledge and therefore can be carried over between incarnations.

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tahujdt

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1003 on: October 07, 2014, 03:17:10 pm »

Obviously, I must remember those memories, I just don't know it yet.

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penguinofhonor

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1004 on: October 07, 2014, 03:40:53 pm »

I think i may change this to a general religious discussion thread

As long as people keep the same relatively calm tone, I think this would be great.
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