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[birdy51]

This is an interesting topic, so I'll throw my two cents in to add even more confusion. It's nowhere near relevant to the current conversations of the day, but I wanted to share it as it is a small interest of mine and deals with Christian beliefs.

As a Catholic, I find Protestant ideas to be interesting as they give perspective on our own ideas. Our scriptures are relatively the same for the most part, yes. But culturally, Catholics and Protestants have other differences that interesting to go into.

For instance... Saints and the idea of a Church that is larger than "us". I recall having a conversation with a Protestant friend of mine and I was kind of interested in this idea as I never did much research into my own faith. I don't want to pretend like I fully understand Catholicism or that I am a scholar of any sort, so please take what I say here with a grain of salt. A note before I begin, when I refer to saints, I simply refer to the idea that any Christian is a saint. There is also the idea that a saint is someone who is recognized by the Church to be a particularly upstanding Christian or a matyr of the faith. This too is correct, as they sort of stand as a blueprint of how one should conduct themselves and as a signpost if you will in our faith.

We(being Catholics) are in a community of sinners/saints, people who are to be aware that A) Sin and B) Can still be redeemed. Degree of sin is debatable, and not the focal point of this particular vein conversation. The focal point of this conversation is how we treat this fact. Alongside the more traditional confess your sins, repent, and conducting acts of contrition; we have this sort veneration, or deep respect for saints; both living and dead. We believe, that even though they are gone, their prayers for us can still reach and aid us. Essentially, we ask for others to pray for us, living or dead, so that we might be healed/guided/helped along our way, a type of prayer we call intercession. (Whether this is actually successful is another debate, but at the very least prayers and thoughts of prayers can be rather comforting for those in dire straights.)

My friend had a very different viewpoint. She was a Protestant of unknown denomination, I never could quite remember. But her views was that when a person died, they were in Heaven and cannot/do not respond to prayers. This was a view that I was never exposed to so I found it interesting, albeit somewhat disheartening due it contradicting my own beliefs.

But I'm still curious, so I'm wondering what other people make of this concept. Thoughts?

[Orange Wizard]

In my (protestant, reformed) church, we consider every Christian to be a saint. Saint meaning "sanctified", or "made blameless". Saints don't get any special powers, though, which is a bit disappointing.

[Lord Shonus]

Technically, in Catholic and early Protestant doctrine, a "Saint" is simply someone who dwells in Heaven rather than Earth, Purgatory, or Hell. Those persons recognized as Saints such as the Apostles or the early martyrs are those that have been "proven" to dwell there by interceding for a miracle, which is why the Church requires a certain number of miracles to be demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Church before they recognize them as such.

[penguinofhonor]

In my (protestant, reformed) church, we consider every Christian to be a saint. Saint meaning "sanctified", or "made blameless". Saints don't get any special powers, though, which is a bit disappointing.

Like I always say: if you're not in a religion that gives you special powers, why bother?

[birdy51]

Hohoho!

It wouldn't be the first or the last time superhuman feats or powers have been granted to normal men through the powers of writing and tradition. We do as a larger culture love our superheroes as they represent something larger, more fantastic than us. Before that, there were Folk Heroes. Saints with rather fantastic acts attributed to them probably fulfilled a similar role.

[scrdest]

In my (protestant, reformed) church, we consider every Christian to be a saint. Saint meaning "sanctified", or "made blameless". Saints don't get any special powers, though, which is a bit disappointing.

Like I always say: if you're not in a religion that gives you special powers, why bother?

See this is why Satanism is awesome. You get to use magic!

Eh, unless I'm mistaken, most of the special powers you get from Satanism is theatrics, record sales, and re-reading Atlas Shrugged.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I missed alot this weekend dang

[TD1]

-snip-

Call it a Protestant upbringing in Northern Ireland, but I've never understood Roman Catholic justification for what they believe. Worship of Mary, mother of God? You may say it's not worship, but let's face it...when you start praying to someone, it's not worship.

The Roman Catholic church with a pope at the head, who lives in ceremony and pomp? Surrounded by riches? Is the representative of God on Earth? I don't understand where this comes from.

I'm genuinely curious...how does the Roman Catholic Church justify aspects of itself that are non-biblical? I don't see it valid even if it comes from the bible, but at least it's understandable.

[Il Palazzo]

The Roman Catholic church with a pope at the head, who lives in ceremony and pomp? Surrounded by riches? Is the representative of God on Earth? I don't understand where this comes from.

I'm genuinely curious...how does the Roman Catholic Church justify aspects of itself that are non-biblical? I don't see it valid even if it comes from the bible, but at least it's understandable.

That's based on Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

The important point here is, you can find all kinds of passages that justify whatever you want about your organisation in a holy book that you have essentially written yourself.

[Retropunch]

-snip-

Call it a Protestant upbringing in Northern Ireland, but I've never understood Roman Catholic justification for what they believe. Worship of Mary, mother of God? You may say it's not worship, but let's face it...when you start praying to someone, it's not worship.

The Roman Catholic church with a pope at the head, who lives in ceremony and pomp? Surrounded by riches? Is the representative of God on Earth? I don't understand where this comes from.

I'm genuinely curious...how does the Roman Catholic Church justify aspects of itself that are non-biblical? I don't see it valid even if it comes from the bible, but at least it's understandable.

Well the Pope is God's conduit on earth, so everything that he says is directly from God. This is due to Jesus giving the power of absolute rule to Saint Peter ('Feed (rule) my Sheep'), if I remember correctly. However, the jump from Peter to the line of Popes is a tricky one which entire libraries of books have been dedicated to.

The ceremony and pomp is ostensibly to glorify God and also to show the power of the church. All of that is couched in medieval-ness, and that wealth = power in those days. There's no biblical reason for it, and in fact most people would say that Jesus was directly opposed to it. But when has that stopped Christians doing anything eh...

[mastahcheese]

I just realized that quite a while back in the thread, I mentioned I'd talk about the Buddhist belief in "Ashuras" and never got around to it.

Basically, Buddhists believe in Karma (everyone already knows this, that good things will be rewarded, bad things will be punished, to provide balance, and whatever.)

The idea of an Ashura, is someone who tried to "cheat" the system.
Basically, someone who does good things and is kind, but not for the sake of it being the right thing to do, but for the sake that there is an extra-physical reward for doing so.
(Sorta ties in with what someone was talking about at the time, about people only being "good" out of a desire to reach heaven/fear of hell. They aren't good people at heart, they are only doing so for their best interest.)

In Buddhist belief, people who do this attempt at cheating the karmatic system will be reincarnated as an "Ashura", who live in a different plane of existence (Sort of like how Hell or the Land of Hungry Souls have their own planes) and it is a place of constant paranoia, where nobody trusts each other, and are constantly warring with each other, trying to take what other have, and hoard what is theirs.

[Retropunch]

I just realized that quite a while back in the thread, I mentioned I'd talk about the Buddhist belief in "Ashuras" and never got around to it.

Basically, Buddhists believe in Karma (everyone already knows this, that good things will be rewarded, bad things will be punished, to provide balance, and whatever.)

The idea of an Ashura, is someone who tried to "cheat" the system.
Basically, someone who does good things and is kind, but not for the sake of it being the right thing to do, but for the sake that there is an extra-physical reward for doing so.
(Sorta ties in with what someone was talking about at the time, about people only being "good" out of a desire to reach heaven/fear of hell. They aren't good people at heart, they are only doing so for their best interest.)

In Buddhist belief, people who do this attempt at cheating the karmatic system will be reincarnated as an "Ashura", who live in a different plane of existence (Sort of like how Hell or the Land of Hungry Souls have their own planes) and it is a place of constant paranoia, where nobody trusts each other, and are constantly warring with each other, trying to take what other have, and hoard what is theirs.

A very interesting topic indeed. There's a psychology debate about if anyone can be truly altruistic, and it's a very tricky one. I personally don't believe you can be truly altruistic, just like you can't be completely without bias or preference. Similarly, you can only be truly altruistic if there is no punishment for if you do or do not do something.

An interesting tangent from this is that if Jesus was said to have been completely altruistic, and Christians are supposed to be as Christ-like as possible, then they surely can't both do that and be fearful of hell - yet, God wields the fear of hell over Christians. Surely if Christians were supposed to be altruistic (and thus following Christ) then having a punishment would be needless?

[Criptfeind]

That seems super unfair, the Ashura thing. Basically you're fucked if you aren't naturally a super generous person who does good things without thinking?

[TD1]

The Roman Catholic church with a pope at the head, who lives in ceremony and pomp? Surrounded by riches? Is the representative of God on Earth? I don't understand where this comes from.

I'm genuinely curious...how does the Roman Catholic Church justify aspects of itself that are non-biblical? I don't see it valid even if it comes from the bible, but at least it's understandable.

That's based on Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

The important point here is, you can find all kinds of passages that justify whatever you want about your organisation in a holy book that you have essentially written yourself.

Where are the pages that say that what amounts to worship of Mary and (to a lesser extent nowadays, but still there) worship of saints is okay?

"Worship no false idols"

Mary is an idol.

[mastahcheese]

That seems super unfair, the Ashura thing. Basically you're fucked if you aren't naturally a super generous person who does good things without thinking?

I think it's more-so people going out of their way to be good for the sake of a reward. There's a difference between being aware of a reward, and saying "Ha! If I'm good, then I'll reach Nirvana, and won't have to deal with this anymore!"

Although also keep in mind the constant belief in reincarnation, that being an Ashura is merely temporary, just as being in Hell.
It's a lesson, less than a punishment.