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[Sagus]

While it's true you need the Queen to have more wasps, the two first migrant waves are, unfortunately, hard coded and cannot be prevented at all (iirc); and I find that, usually, these two waves are more than enough to fill you fort with a good work force and even a military, depending on how much your fort is worth (I remember one time where the two first waves brought nearly 80 kobolds in, it was crazy). So depending on the circumstances the Queen could become irrelevant.

Perhaps the fact that their main building material is paper ciment will make it so the fortress has little enough wealth that the waves will generally be small, but I'm not sure...

Well, let's see what the poll will say.

[than402]

sure, in the first few years you won't need the queen that much. but a hive will have casualties. some from the wild, others from failed moods and more from megabeasts and enemies.
even in you don't the main castes (that is, soldiers and workers) serve two different purposes. when the migrant waves stop coming you may find yourself having too few soldiers for your military or too many (which is supposed to be rare, soldiers are fewer than the workers, but still). or simply you have a project in mind that requires lots of wasps.
also, bear in mind that wasps have significantly shorter lifespans that humans (soldiers 40-50  years, workers 15-20 years). you WILL have deaths from old age as your hive progresses.
there's also an advantage in making a lot of wasps: culling them for free food, essence and soul
 finally, since parent-child and wife-husband relations will be nonexistent, and therefore tantrum spirals more rare, swarming your enemies with a horde of wasps and aberrants will be a perfectly viable tactic. especially if you're crafty enough and manage to have two or more queens on the hive hidden from one another.

so you'll definitely need a queen at some point. the question is: do you plan on making a lot of wasps quickly, and therefore making a queen is your first priority, or do you find managing 16 new creatures per year too much of a liability for a newly established hive and you want to wait for a few years?

and now, two questions: a)should the wasps be allied with any faction or should they have no allies at all?
b)is there a way to limit the population cap only for the wasps?

[Meph]

You can also make the queen a pet. Expensive enough that you can only buy one. Then the egg-laying wouldnt be an issue at all, and she wouldnt do labor like other wasps. The eggs are of course infertile, because you have no male-queen-pets, but you can use the eggs in reactions to spawn larvae.

If she is immobile (bit fat queen sitting around), migrants wouldnt bring any more. And in emergencies you could order a new queen from the homeland.

[heydude6]

Well, I personally do not like the idea of the queens being useless and unable to participate in the labour. In real life wasp queens were actually very active in the creation of a hive, they only got lazy after the hive was well established. I wanted to actually simulate that with making the mayor a lazy noble and queens were the only possible candidates to be elected, but unfortunately the lazy noble tag is broken at the current moment.

Also, I already have interactions that spawn larvae. I don't need reactions.

[hanspeter]

Why not have multiple tiers? First is an actual Civ-member, doing stuff, building nests - spawn fewer larvae. Second tier after some sort of upgrade(/time?) turns into an immobile pet that needs to be catered to and spawns more larvae. I think that's even similar to what actual wasps do.

Bonus points if you have her drop some random commands (in the form of items like the warlock overlord) which automatically queue a job in the queens-nest-workshop on which she's pastured, like feeding her with drinks or meat, or cleaning up her den which gives her an interaction to spawn larvae after some time. Would add an interesting twist to the game, I think.

[Sagus]

sure, in the first few years you won't need the queen that much. but a hive will have casualties. some from the wild, others from failed moods and more from megabeasts and enemies. [...]

Hmmm... very good points. I suppose either option could fit well, then.
Perhaps there could even be a in-universe explanation for the Queen being created later. Something like, wasps send out small groups of workers into the wild to search for suitable places for a new hive, and only after establishing a good base they create the Queen.

Perhaps there could be a punishment for NOT having a Queen? Like, the moods of every other caste begins to deteriorate more and more with each passing season if they don't have a Queen by the end of Year 2. If this is at all possible, it could be interesting.

As for limiting wasp population, would changing the pop_cap token in the entity entry work?

Well, I personally do not like the idea of the queens being useless and unable to participate in the labour. In real life wasp queens were actually very active in the creation of a hive, they only got lazy after the hive was well established. I wanted to actually simulate that with making the mayor a lazy noble and queens were the only possible candidates to be elected, but unfortunately the lazy noble tag is broken at the current moment.

Also, I already have interactions that spawn larvae. I don't need reactions.

I agree, it'd feel kinda "off" to me.

Why not have multiple tiers? First is an actual Civ-member, doing stuff, building nests - spawn fewer larvae. Second tier after some sort of upgrade(/time?) turns into an immobile pet that needs to be catered to and spawns more larvae. [...]

This could be an interesting take on it, indeed.

[than402]

Hmmm... very good points. I suppose either option could fit well, then.
Perhaps there could even be a in-universe explanation for the Queen being created later. Something like, wasps send out small groups of workers into the wild to search for suitable places for a new hive, and only after establishing a good base they create the Queen.

Perhaps there could be a punishment for NOT having a Queen? Like, the moods of every other caste begins to deteriorate more and more with each passing season if they don't have a Queen by the end of Year 2. If this is at all possible, it could be interesting.

maybe having an interaction which activates once every 3 years and triggers the misery script (unhappy thoughts for the whole fort). the queen suspends the interaction. this means you must have at least one queen at a meeting point. the downside is that the script will trigger even if one wasp doesn't see the queen, for example if the wasp is in the hospital. maybe making the queen give the other wasps one use interactions that suspend the script will work. but is not being able to replenish your numbers enough of a punishment for neglecting your queen?

what would be interesting is if the queen drops a stone triggering the script upon death. but i'm not sure that would work. autosyndrome needs a unit nearby to trigger.

As for limiting wasp population, would changing the pop_cap token in the entity entry work?

it only works for NPC sites 

Why not have multiple tiers? First is an actual Civ-member, doing stuff, building nests - spawn fewer larvae. Second tier after some sort of upgrade(/time?) turns into an immobile pet that needs to be catered to and spawns more larvae. I think that's even similar to what actual wasps do.

Bonus points if you have her drop some random commands (in the form of items like the warlock overlord) which automatically queue a job in the queens-nest-workshop on which she's pastured, like feeding her with drinks or meat, or cleaning up her den which gives her an interaction to spawn larvae after some time. Would add an interesting twist to the game, I think.

i think immobile creatures who need to eat and drink simply die from dehydration for the same reasons orphan babies die from dehydration: they can't fend for themselves and no one in the hive cares.

[hanspeter]

i think immobile creatures who need to eat and drink simply die from dehydration for the same reasons orphan babies die from dehydration: they can't fend for themselves and no one in the hive cares.

I think you misunderstood. They wouldn't actually be feeding her like feeding prisoners/wounded works, just simulate it via automatic workshop jobs that run when there's a [command]-token + food/drink present. If you can tie the token-drop to hunger/thirst even better. The workshop could then reset hunger/thirst timers for the queen via autosyndromes. Otherwise just give her [NO_EAT]+[NO_DRINK] and have the tokens drop anyway.

I think it would be an interesting and novel approach to have a civ really center on the well-being of a single creature, with attendants and such. Warlocks are similar, maybe.. but they are still very autonomous.

[slay_mithos]

Maybe simulate it by crippling the creature in a way that keeps the queen in the hospital, casting her eggs every now and then?

[Sagus]

but is not being able to replenish your numbers enough of a punishment for neglecting your queen?

Well, there are some scenarios that could make population replenishment irrelevant for a pretty long while, such as starting on a location that doesn't allow for sieges so few wasps will die from violence. You could go for the first 7, 8 years without having to worry about a Queen, with planning. And seeing as how paper cement is their main material, the fortress wealth will also usually be pretty low anyway, not attracting sieges too often.

And this is more of a "flavor" concern than actual gameplay, but it just feels odd for a "hivemind" species having no mental problems at all being away from the hivemind center, the Queen.

[than402]

Well, there are some scenarios that could make population replenishment irrelevant for a pretty long while, such as starting on a location that doesn't allow for sieges so few wasps will die from violence. You could go for the first 7, 8 years without having to worry about a Queen, with planning. And seeing as how paper cement is their main material, the fortress wealth will also usually be pretty low anyway, not attracting sieges too often.

And this is more of a "flavor" concern than actual gameplay, but it just feels odd for a "hivemind" species having no mental problems at all being away from the hivemind center, the Queen.

good points. i think the interactions i described will do the trick.

I think you misunderstood. They wouldn't actually be feeding her like feeding prisoners/wounded works, just simulate it via automatic workshop jobs that run when there's a [command]-token + food/drink present. If you can tie the token-drop to hunger/thirst even better. The workshop could then reset hunger/thirst timers for the queen via autosyndromes. Otherwise just give her [NO_EAT]+[NO_DRINK] and have the tokens drop anyway.

I think it would be an interesting and novel approach to have a civ really center on the well-being of a single creature, with attendants and such. Warlocks are similar, maybe.. but they are still very autonomous.

i'm not sure i understand correctly what you are saying. what do you mean [command]-token?

Maybe simulate it by crippling the creature in a way that keeps the queen in the hospital, casting her eggs every now and then?

the problem is, wasps will try to cure the queen. if the queen gets constantly crippled to stay in the hospital, that also means it will spam hospital jobs and will consume hospital items

[heydude6]

well here is what I will say, lazy queens are not that important. Also wouldn't it be fun to have for the first time ever, the option to have a battle-queen. We've had warrior princesses in the past but battle queens are different since their deaths are much more significant. She already has superior attributes compared to other wasps.

[Sagus]

I'm pretty split on the "immobile Queen" idea...

Although I do think I feel more inclined to agree with heydude6's post above.

Maybe after the current pool about the availability of the Queen closes, another one could be made regarding this issue?

[heydude6]

Well this is just rewording my previous post but, the thing is, the giant hivemind queen that looks like it could take on the whole army singlehandedly being merely relegated to egg laying duty is a very often used trope. (not overused) I just think it would be a nice change if you actually got to control the badass for once.

[than402]

To be honest, I prefer badass queens running around murdering enemies by the score rather than a giant immobile slacker. After all waspen queens are supposed to be the leaders, not just baby laying factories. But there must be a penalty if the queen dies.