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Author Topic: Melee Combat  (Read 31374 times)

Parsely

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #195 on: September 16, 2014, 09:03:18 pm »

Pick one up and you are a marksman.
That's a misconception perpetuated by video games. The spread on a shotgun that isn't sawn-off is going to be super tight up until about 30 or 40 meters, depending on the type of choke.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 09:06:18 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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mainiac

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #196 on: September 16, 2014, 09:07:08 pm »

No that's my personal bias from use.  I love shotguns.
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LordBucket

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #197 on: September 16, 2014, 09:21:15 pm »

when you parry you have to avoid parrying with the edge of your blade,
else the blade's edge will become useless fast

1) Not all offhand weapons have blades. Sai, tonfa and eskrima sticks for example, have no blade to be damaged.
2) Offhand weapons are routinely not slashing weapons. Some are, yes. But if your parrying dagger gets nicked, that's not going to be a problem when you stab someone with it.
3) Even if you are using a slashing weapon like Chinese butterfly knives, a bladed weapon repeatedly struck by a bladed weapon does not dull. It becomes serrated. That does not make it useless.



Also, shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.

Depends. What sort of scenario are we talking about?

If you're talking going out to the firing range and offhand shooting a pistol into a target at 30 yards...yeah, that's going to be tough. If we imagine combat taking place inside an office or home, where distance to target is unlikely to be more than 15-20 feet at most, I think offhand firing is realistic. If we're talking a zombie apocalypse, or the previously mentioned "soloing the Mongolian horde" scenario, with potentially dozens of targets all at close range...yeah, I absolutely would want the second weapon.



shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.
You forget about the magic that is called shotguns.  Pick one up and you are a marksman.  Doesn't matter if you are out of practice, shooting with the wrong hand or have the shakes.

I've never fired a shotgun with one hand, but I think if I saw somebody dual wielding a pair of sawed-off shotguns...I'd avoid that guy regardless of my estimates of his chances of hitting me.

Footkerchief

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #198 on: September 16, 2014, 10:02:29 pm »

Also, handguns have existed for about 500 years, and only in the last 100 have they become easy to reload.  Before then, having twice as many guns meant twice as many ready-to-use bullets.
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Tiruin

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #199 on: September 17, 2014, 02:16:40 am »

I really think we should change the title of this thread into a General Weapons and Combat thread given the direction and many (very useful!) side comments present. :P
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Sinistar

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #200 on: September 17, 2014, 03:24:57 am »

I've never fired a shotgun with one hand, but I think if I saw somebody dual wielding a pair of sawed-off shotguns...I'd avoid that guy regardless of my estimates of his chances of hitting me.
Speaking of shotguns, you could do even better than using two sawed-off midgets...

But I better exit now before Tiruin get's angry at me for continuing this gun debate.  :P
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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #201 on: October 22, 2014, 10:00:25 pm »

Just found some more stick fighting stuff for comparison

The first is french stick fighting, which trains for the use of sabers
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canne_de_combat

This second one is African in origin and I think it is just general self defence stuff
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguni_stick-fighting
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Neonivek

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #202 on: October 23, 2014, 03:33:09 am »

Pick one up and you are a marksman.
That's a misconception perpetuated by video games. The spread on a shotgun that isn't sawn-off is going to be super tight up until about 30 or 40 meters, depending on the type of choke.

It also depends on the shotgun. Quite a few spread even further back then that.

The only game that does Shotguns competently is Inversion... where you can reliably kill someone at medium range.

Also if you are dual wielding pistols you are likely in point blank range... but there are better dual wield combinations in that scenario. In fact that is one of the FEW situations where Dual Weilding is appropriate.

Mind you that is because Dual Weilding is a loaded term... whenever people refer to it they usually refer to what I'd call "Sword dancing"... while exists and is a thing... but the majority of the time when someone is Dual Weilding they don't use both instruments as a weapon at the same time.

For example often they will use one weapon as a shield. Other times it is to allow the user to switch between weapons at a fly in the case where the weapons are drastically different (USUALLY a ranged and melee weapon). Other times it is because their shield is ALSO a weapon. Heck a lot of weapons meant to be dual wielded are designed to be a weapon and a shield at the same time.

Dual Weilding is simply having two weapons. How you use them isn't part of the formula.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 03:38:46 am by Neonivek »
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #203 on: October 26, 2014, 12:46:42 am »

I think dual-wielding pistols isn't that impractical, as long as you're not trying to aim both at the same time. But you're definitely going to hit a lot more things shooting one gun with both hands.

I'd like to point out that the modern assault rifle + underbarrel grenade launcher is functionally dual wielding, even though technically you're only directly holding one weapon.
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Parsely

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #204 on: October 26, 2014, 01:09:28 am »

I think dual-wielding pistols isn't that impractical, as long as you're not trying to aim both at the same time. But you're definitely going to hit a lot more things shooting one gun with both hands.
I'd like to point out that the modern assault rifle + underbarrel grenade launcher is functionally dual wielding, even though technically you're only directly holding one weapon.
..Okay?
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Hawkfrost

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #205 on: October 26, 2014, 04:54:37 pm »

Honestly instead of a parrying dagger, what is the validity of using a heavy gauntlet in the off hand to grab the enemy or their weapon instead?
Because I feel if I had a sword and a dagger I would feel reflex to just drop the other weapon.
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Arx

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #206 on: October 27, 2014, 12:39:51 pm »

I'm a bit late, but the trouble with gauntlets is that it's nearly impossible to effectively armour the palm of the hand, and such plates would be too small to appreciably reduce the force of a blow.
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Parsely

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #207 on: October 27, 2014, 01:29:20 pm »

I'm a bit late, but the trouble with gauntlets is that it's nearly impossible to effectively armour the palm of the hand, and such plates would be too small to appreciably reduce the force of a blow.
You could grab your opponent's blade if you wore a mail mitten over some stout leather. That pretty much completely eliminates the danger of being cut, though obviously if he targets a thrust at your hand it wouldn't do much to stop that. Actually catching a slash with your open hand is probably a bad idea regardless of the armor (ow mah bones D:), no doubt you'd want to seize the enemy's blade after you had successfully halted his attack, then use your influence on his weapon to prevent him from defending himself.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 01:31:12 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Zrk2

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #208 on: October 27, 2014, 01:33:38 pm »

I think dual-wielding pistols isn't that impractical, as long as you're not trying to aim both at the same time. But you're definitely going to hit a lot more things shooting one gun with both hands.

Also, shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.

You make a mistake there my friend.  You forget about the magic that is called shotguns.  Pick one up and you are a marksman.  Doesn't matter if you are out of practice, shooting with the wrong hand or have the shakes.

Large spread != accurate

Sure, you may hit targets at very short ranges, but at anything beyond ~25 feet you'll still be useless. Source: have fired shotguns.

Also, shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.

Depends. What sort of scenario are we talking about?

If you're talking going out to the firing range and offhand shooting a pistol into a target at 30 yards...yeah, that's going to be tough. If we imagine combat taking place inside an office or home, where distance to target is unlikely to be more than 15-20 feet at most, I think offhand firing is realistic. If we're talking a zombie apocalypse, or the previously mentioned "soloing the Mongolian horde" scenario, with potentially dozens of targets all at close range...yeah, I absolutely would want the second weapon.

Zombie apocalypse you don't want them getting close enough for your off-hand to be accurate because then you're close enough to catch whatever it is from the gore, and if you're "soloing the Mongol horde" by the time they get within off-hand range you won't be able to shoot them as fast as they can close on you. You might get a couple, but you're head's coming off regardless.

Quote
I've never fired a shotgun with one hand, but I think if I saw somebody dual wielding a pair of sawed-off shotguns...I'd avoid that guy regardless of my estimates of his chances of hitting me.

Always avoid shotguns, the wounds they leave are almost untreatable. even in World War One they were trying to ban them, but had no problem with Chlorine Gas.

I'm a bit late, but the trouble with gauntlets is that it's nearly impossible to effectively armour the palm of the hand, and such plates would be too small to appreciably reduce the force of a blow.

I have seen large plates that strap onto the palm for blocking blades, but taking the full force of the bow to your palm sounds like a one-way trip to a broken wrist. Using it to deflect blades is much more practical, and I have seen videos of various martial arts masters doing so.
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Arx

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #209 on: October 27, 2014, 01:36:49 pm »

Oh yes, if you just want to grab it while stationary a mail mitten would be fine. The trouble is that a square hit from a bastard sword will shear mail like so much plastic, followed by your metacarpals. And of course, if it does skate off the mail there's still the chance of major bone damage, as you said. The other problem is that the friction coefficient of steel on steel is pretty low, so your opponent may well simply be able to back off slightly and reclaim their weapon with a sharp tug. Twisting might work, if you're strong enough to overcome the fact that in the modal combat you will be holding their sword with your weak hand while they will have it in their dominant hand.
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