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[Dwarf_Fever]

Joke's on you buddy, it's really called Killology.

The funny thing is there pretty much really is a "how to discriminate and murder then get away with it" course at police academies. Killology, sheepdog rhetoric, etc.

Where's the discrimination part and the murder part?
Maybe you already forgot what you've written 20 minutes ago?
Joke's on you, I guess?

[Cthulhu]

Maybe you already forgot what you've written 20 minutes ago?
Joke's on you, I guess?

You went from "almost all police are good" to "the police need external oversight because they'll illegally kick your door down and throw you into a mental hospital and make a commemorative coin about it if you tell on them" in adjacent posts, dude.

[Dwarf_Fever]

You went from "almost all police are good" to "the police need external oversight because they'll illegally kick your door down and throw you into a mental hospital and make a commemorative coin about it if you tell on them" in adjacent posts, dude.

These are not contradictory statements, dude. "Most people are good but bad dudes sometimes do things so we gotta watch out." How is this hard to reconcile?

[Cthulhu]

Well where were the most people?  Was he just profoundly unlucky that every single cop he interacted with from recording misconduct to telling people about it to being swatted and illegally detained was a bad cop?

Why should I have to look elsewhere on those 500+ videos of police brutality, why are they never on film?  Are they vampires?  Are they bigfoot?  Are they fucking useless?

[Dwarf_Fever]

Well where were the most people?

Do you want GPS locations or something? I'm not sure you've thought through this question.

Why should I have to look elsewhere on those 500+ videos of police brutality, why are they never on film?

Where's the website where people collect all their recordings of normal, decent humans just doing their job?

[SalmonGod]

Why should I have to look elsewhere on those 500+ videos of police brutality, why are they never on film?

Where's the website where people collect all their recordings of normal, decent humans just doing their job?

Maybe if police didn't retaliate against people filming them so much, such a thing would be more likely to exist  (/half joking)

Is there some point where you're going to get tired of being deftly shown to know nothing about this subject, while smugly declaring everybody else to be uninformed?... moments like this?

Sounds real legit, got any actual course names?

Joke's on you buddy, it's really called Killology.

When moments like that happen, do you not pause for just a second and think "shit maybe these people have actually spent time on this."

You're seriously making a fool of yourself here.  Your rhetoric is all over the fucking place.  You're barely making a lick of sense at this point.  Someone says there is a "how to discriminate and murder and get away with it" course.  You ask for a name, and are obviously so uninformed on this subject as to not recognize that he already told you the name.  The name is LITERALLY "KILLOLOGY" and your response is

Where's the discrimination part and the murder part?

Instead of even bothering to check into the thing that's LITERALLY CALLED KILLOLOGY that you very obviously didn't even know was a real thing until now because you didn't recognize the name, you just turn around within 20 minutes and imply that the thing you didn't know existed isn't what it's being claimed to be.

Why should anyone take you the slightest bit seriously right now?

[Superdorf]

Y'all are being trolled.

...

...anyway. The reforms that ex-cop on Medium was suggesting?
Today I got to read about the New Jersey city that enacted similar reforms some years ago.

Seems to have worked out alright for them!

[Max™]

Ok, Dwarf_Fever, you wanna go into numbers, here ya go: https://www.columbus.gov/finance/financial-management-group/budget-management/2020-Operating-Budget/ >>>  https://www.columbus.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2147512517

Breaks down the various categories, income streams, plus the last couple years for comparison, so they're closer to 1 billion than the half a billion which the chart listed, they still spend a full third on cops alone, and roughly a quarter on firefighters.

Hell let's break it down further, looking at the budget breakdown it looks like of the 332 million spent on police personnel it works out to ~140,179.54 each counting uniformed/non-uniformed police, while the 252 million spent on fire personnel works out to 152,458.77 with the same breakdown, though nearly 412 vs 1963 cops non-uniformed/uniformed compared to only 51 vs 1606 firefighters makes it seem like uniformed firefighters are valued more than cops are.

How many times do said firefighters burn buildings down, or hack people to death with fire axes instead of pulling them out of buildings?

I don't think anybody is misguided about what firefighters do or why we need them or why they're worth spending a big chunk of a budget on, even if you don't have a bunch of fires in a given year, lightning strikes, bad wiring, falling asleep with a cigarette in your hand, forgetting to clean out a fireplace enough, and many more types of accidents, plus occasional assholes lighting shit on fire that gets out of hand... no, I don't think anybody worries when fire trucks show up to save their shit.

What exactly is the lightning strike, dozing off with a cigarette in your hand, dirty fireplace type of analogue for cops?

I'd ask if there is REALLY that much crime to make them necessary, but as I and others explained, most of what cops do isn't anything which needs a gun, and unfortunately lots of times when they use their guns... it just makes shit worse for some poor fuck who was in the wrong place right then and definitely didn't do shit worth being executed for.

See, if firefighters were just partying on their paychecks and ignoring calls and people died because they weren't doing their job I'd see being pissed about how much they take out of a city budget... but they're not.

Why is having a militarized force trained to react to human shaped objects as potential threats and targets necessary?

Why is it hard to imagine the various suggested alternative structures might both serve their community better and directly harm their communities less?

ARE YOU A POLICE COMMISSIONER? You gotta fess up man, out with it.

[delphonso]

Are you a cop? If you are, you have to tell me.

[Dwarf_Fever]

Maybe if police didn't retaliate against people filming them so much, such a thing would be more likely to exist  (/half joking)

Is there some point where you're going to get tired of being deftly shown to know nothing about this subject, while smugly declaring everybody else to be uninformed?... moments like this?

Actually, I was hoping not to have to explain this simple, pedantic fact: People don't bother to film decent human beings just doing their job, that's boring. Sensationalism drives news media, headlines and public perception. That's why there is no repository of these films as a counter-weight. As a full disclaimer, none of this is an excuse for police brutality, another fact I hoped not to have to explain.

When moments like that happen, do you not pause for just a second and think "shit maybe these people have actually spent time on this."

You're seriously making a fool of yourself here.  Your rhetoric is all over the fucking place.  You're barely making a lick of sense at this point.  Someone says there is a "how to discriminate and murder and get away with it" course.  You ask for a name, and are obviously so uninformed on this subject as to not recognize that he already told you the name.  The name is LITERALLY "KILLOLOGY" and your response is

Where's the discrimination part and the murder part?

Instead of even bothering to check into the thing that's LITERALLY CALLED KILLOLOGY that you very obviously didn't even know was a real thing until now because you didn't recognize the name, you just turn around within 20 minutes and imply that the thing you didn't know existed isn't what it's being claimed to be.

Why should anyone take you the slightest bit seriously right now?

I read the wikipedia article that was linked and it did not say anything about teaching cops how to murder or how to discriminate, key parts of the accusation. It actually didn't mention that any police academies offered this as a course, either, which was another claim, but this is not even relevant, because:

Did you seriously think that because someone used a provocative name like "Killology" it must be illegal or racist? The author's material is about how to use lethal force effectively in situations that call for it, because human psychology can throw a wrench in self-defense methods of a lethal nature.

Edit: At this point I just know I'm going to have to explain this later if I don't go ahead and give it the grade school treatment: lethal force is not necessarily murder.

Normal decent humans doing their job are what we expect. Expecting police to serve and protect is what's made the need for the protests so apparent, since we're radically far from that reality. 'Bad dudes sometimes doing something' doesn't lead to whole police departments staging walkouts when made to face the consequences of their behavior. 'Bad dudes sometimes doing something' doesn't lead to blinded news reporters and press beaten and tear-gassed for being the press. 'Bad dudes sometimes doing something' doesn't lead to protestors getting kettled in so they can't leave the protest until after curfew is instated, so they get tear-gassed and arrested.

My quote referred to the need for oversight, not the incidents you're talking about, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. Are you saying we don't need oversight for police?

We're learning now to expect this behavior, and we don't like it. These are public servants we are now expecting to exert hostility or ruin lives and they no longer represent the idea of the thing they're hired on for. Uninvolved people are radically changing their behavior in the presence of police simply because drawing their attention can get you choked to death, hogtied to death, arrested on phony drug charges, your assets seized, or any number of other unpleasantries. Just 'not breaking the law' isn't enough.

Changing their behaviour? I only know of people who are going out of there way to make sure they'll be in confrontation with police by attending demonstrations.

RE: Their us-vs-them culture: That's the whole basis for the 'thin blue line,' isn't it?

The thin blue line isn't us vs them, it's law and order vs chaos. Literally the job we pay them to do: maintain law and order. Do you find it ironic that we ask and pay them to do a job, then demonize them for taking pride in it?

Why, there shouldn't need to be oversight if there was no us-vs-them culture, or they'd police themselves, letter of the law and all that, yes?

Really? Are you aware that every single modern treatise on government proposes "checks and balances," and this oversight is a basic principle of government?

[Vector]

If we are going to discuss "law and order" vs. "chaos" these concepts need to be well-defined, which they are not.

[Dwarf_Fever]

If we are going to discuss "law and order" vs. "chaos" these concepts need to be well-defined, which they are not.

Law: the system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties. Order: a synonym for law. Chaos: A lack of order.

[Vector]

I see, we have different understandings of law. I understand law as measures taken by a community to encourage its flourishing. It does not intrinsically require the imposition of penalties, nor is its purpose the regulation of actions, and its essence is not found in the system of rules.

The outlaw is the one who behaves in a way to be outside the law, in other words, against the wellbeing of the community. They are a self-exile. The purpose of the guardians of the law is to bring outlaws within the law. We have a word for this: atonement, which comes from a ligature of the word "at" and "one" when some medieval European copyists repeatedly made a mistake.


Does a gunshot bring the outlaw, the errant member of the community, back within an understanding of the law? Does a prison?

[Dwarf_Fever]

I see, we have different understandings of law. I understand law as [...]

Really? I was actually quoting the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, but alright.

[Vector]

"The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." -- St. Augustine of Hippo, Confessions.

In order for the populace to uphold the law, the populace must understand the law to which they are subject. Inevitably, they will understand this through mechanisms which are at best supplemented by texts, whether dictionaries (Nietzsche has a very interesting critique of these, by the way, and calls them the "columbarium of language") or philosophical writings.

We must note in addition that the law is written by human beings, as is the dictionary. Those human beings write according to reference texts and also according to their own understanding. I must regret that as someone who was until yesterday a high school teacher, I have faith that you can be the architect of meaning in your own life and supplement your knowledge of texts with your own experiences. These experiences likely include many occasions on which you have broken agreements and resolved them without authority involvement. I will add that your sarcasm is unnecessary and indicates sophistry rather than good faith argument.


Finally, before I sleep. The law as a system of rules is certainly what we have in the dictionary today. However, the aim of civilization being flourishing for the polity is an idea that comes from Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, who are also valid references, I believe, in this conversation. They should perhaps not be authorities in it due to their tolerance of a society built on slavery, but they deserve a seat at the table.