Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[wierd]

Considering that the police are often implicated in some nasty behaviors in this country.  You know, shooting people dead in their homes and stuff.

[Arx]

I mean from the perspective of an outsider it seems really bloomin' obvious that the problem isn't that the police are armed, it's that the police abuse it. "Disarm the police" is just a result of people either not believing police reform is possible and/or a myopic fixation on the idea that police officers are inherently evil.

[wierd]

It's most likely a combination of factors causing a deranged/distorted worldview among police officers.

Firstly, they deal with the least savory of society almost exclusively. This leads to a distorted perspective that all of society is degenerate scum.
Secondly, the population is armed (heavily.) This means not only are the people they deal with shady as shit, they are also dangerous as hell.

This leads to police becoming jaded, and adversarial to society at large, and promotes the "preemptive" types of behavior seen. (EG, shooting first.)


The prescribed course of action is to monitor the mental health of law enforcement officers to avoid this kind of behavior and mindset changes, so that these officers can be cycled in and out of service where they interact with law abiding citizens sufficiently often that these biases do not develop and fester.  However, since the police districts are run like fascist gestapos, this never happens.  Instead, the "Thin Blue Line" gets reinforced like all get out, and the bias becomes "work culture."

Our police districts would rather spend funding increases on literal tanks, than on redundant personnel (as is needed to do said mental health cycling).

It does not help that people with sociopathic tendencies are drawn to such petty positions of authority (so that they can then get authority boners over abusing people and getting away with it.)


Reducing the supply of arms IS reactionary, but it makes sense if coupled with the appropriate mental health leave required to keep police officers sane.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I can't believe people are advocating disarming the police in a country where the general populace is armed.

I think a lot of those same people want to disarm the populace, too.

Nah, they can stay armed.

[nenjin]

It's based on media coverage and narratives, not reality.

No. It's based on the body count and the absolute disregard for civilian life we've been seeing _for years._ This isn't spin.

There may be 8500000 cops in the US, but when even 10% of those are a) poorly trained b) don't honestly care about preserving human life c) actively want to shoot someone in the line of duty, it creates a state of fear for everyone. So there are cops that are good at their jobs. When are those cops going to drown out the bad ones? Oh wait they don't, because law enforcement is a fraternal order that closes ranks immediately even when they're know they've completely fucked up, and officers that actively try to combat shitty police culture are shoved out of the force.

And here's the real difference: you can't control what criminals will do. Because they're criminals. They don't abide by the law to begin with. We HIRE and TRAIN police and then act like we ultimately have no control over what they do? What's the fucking difference between a cop and a crook if they both do whatever the hell they want and people die unnecessarily? The fact that the police say they're the good guys?

[Il Palazzo]

These are all valid concerns, as attested by the entire content of this thread. But it's beside the point that one doesn't disarm the police before successfully disarming the populace. Otherwise you're just increasing the death toll, albeit now with a higher proportion of criminals doing the killing. I'm not sure how that would count as a success.

[wierd]

Indeed.  Addressing the causal factors to the evolution of those undesirable traits is part and parcel with correcting them.

The problem, is that many individuals in law enforcement do not want to correct them. (Again, either because they have succumbed to a world view that "everyone but cops are criminal scum" and "Criminal scum do not deserve humane treatment; if you show them leniency, they will either recidivate or turn on you the moment your back is turned", or because they are innately sociopathic, and were drawn to the position because it exerted power over others.)

The first of those pathways is quite addressable; You have to prevent the formation of this worldview, by ensuring that sufficient numbers of law abiding citizens are interacted with daily. That means cycling officers in and out of "beat work", and into areas of work where law abiding citizens are interacted with. (Such as outreach programs, et al.) When a person spends all day, every day, interacting with drug dealers, pimps, rapists, murderers, thieves, and other reprehensible people, it creates a poisoned world view. (When 90+% of your human interactions are with people you really really cannot trust, and can pretty much be assured would rather kill you and run than go to the precinct for booking and processing, it wears on your mind. You begin to think that 90% of people in general are such people. This is how the Thin Blue Line gets started mentally.  "You can trust another cop." --vis-a-vis-- "You do not betray another cop's trust." ) An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure; More cops, more "non-criminal" interaction, with cycling between job functions on a regular basis.

That is what they need.  MUCH more than they need fucking riot gear and urban assault vehicles. (which just subtly reinforce the worldview that the general public is dangerous and must be "controlled" rather than trusted.) 

[Arx]

These are all valid concerns, as attested by the entire content of this thread. But it's beside the point that one doesn't disarm the police before successfully disarming the populace. Otherwise you're just increasing the death toll, albeit now with a higher proportion of criminals doing the killing. I'm not sure how that would count as a success.

No, you see, as soon as you join any police force you give up your membership in humanity and killing you becomes fair game. At least, that's very much the impression I get from certain far-left members of this forum. I suspect several of them would celebrate a rising body count among the police.

[wierd]

^ This is a consequence of the "counter bias"-- "You cannot trust a cop." (because the cops all view you as subhuman degenerate scum, and will shoot you just as soon as look at you.)

The first one (Cops develop poisonous world view) leads to the other (Public does not trust the police.)

[nenjin]

I don't honestly think disarming the police is the answer. But their hardware is directly tied to their culture. They view themselves as a paramilitary force and get the trappings and accoutrements that reflect that belief, and that shit has got to stop. Amber Guyger is a perfect example of the gung-ho tough guy shit that permeates police culture, where they're just WAITING to shoot somebody. They think they're embattled and they take that belief to the streets and end up shooting people for no goddamn reason other than they've been priming themselves for it.
 
I remember walking around Toulouse in 2016 and being pretty shocked seeing French Police carrying SAWs around in the open in crowded public spaces. This also happened to be the same week a dude boarded a train with an AK47 and shot it up. Like I said, if Europe can handle that reality and those kinds of weapons without blasting civilians on a regular basis, what is our excuse?

[wierd]

I'd be willing to bet that mental health is treated better there, and their governments are not run by money-fascists.

Here in the US, everyone is afraid to pay what labor is actually worth at every level, and want to pretend that people going fucking nuts because they are being over-exposed to criminality and ending up with PTSD is a normal part of the job, and people that want relief are just "fucking pansies."

Toxic masculinity is at least partially to blame for this, but so is the "Puritan work ethic", and the "MORE WITH LESS!" mantra all around.


Who would have guessed it-- you shove people into a corner, and they go fucking nuts.  Amazing.


If you note, the issues with France, in regard to say their recent issues with "Yellow vest protests", have come about because the French government has been twisting the screws on what was previously a more laid back work culture in the country--- Because of financial and political pressures from more "money uber alles!" minded members of the EU.

Under those conditions, France will someday enjoy the same toxic shit we do.

[nenjin]

Laid back might be putting it mildly. On the same trip I went by a shoe store that said "Out to lunch, be back in an hour." It was 4pm. The place was still closed two hours later.

[Doomblade187]

A little note on the ACAB attitude some of us have. (All Cops Are Bastards) Basically, the fact that even in cases where cops were clearly in the wrong, the others defend the cop who fucked up/committed murder/etc. Add this to the fact that people who "snitch" on the cops, by filing lawsuits against the department, etc, are often threatened and harassed - presumably by other cops, because who else would.

And then there are the police unions - they resist disarmament, demilitarization, and any consequences for union members. While I understand that part of this, defending cops in court, is literally part of their job, the others are not. They don't advocate for actual counseling to fight PTSD, they don't want to give up their APCs and assault rifles, and they resist change always, it seems.

All these, in addition to the overuse of SWAT teams, informs our view.

[wierd]

Indeed;  Remember, people that develop a toxic world view honestly hold that view.  It is genuinely the way they see things. 

As such, they are unwilling to admit that the way they view the world is in fact-- toxic.


They are unwilling to get rid of the APCs, riot gear, and other hyper-militarized police gear, because as they see it-- they need those things. (because everyone but other cops are subhuman scum.)


Again, prevention is better than cure.  However, because (in our country at least) we just fucking love to ignore problems until they reach completely pathological levels, then stand around and go "What happened!?" when it all flies apart at the seams, we have let this problem fester for fucking decades on end, and now all sides of the issue are firmly entrenched into their positions, and those positions drive a feedback loop.

Eg-

Cops are overworked, because cities, states, and the nation in general don't want to allocate more resources as populations grow, and require more police presence.
This makes cops become more and more jaded, as their caseloads become more and more comprised of "Really really scummy people(tm)".
Cops begin to treat all citizens like "Really really scummy people(tm)".
Citizen trust in the police drops.
Cops interpret this natural reaction as reinforcement that "Everyone out there are really really scummy people(tm)", and become even more antagonistic.
Citizens now consider cops on par with criminals.
Cops treat all citizens like child rapists-- (EG, people that deserve no quarter.)

And it all started because "DO MORE WITH LESS! YAY!!"


Again-- The REALLY REAL solution to this problem, is to NOT give these police districts APCs and paramilitary gear. (No matter how "on sale" it is from the US government.)  The Really real solution is the begin repairing the damage our police system has incurred, both internally to the cops themselves, and with the public at large, by mandating better mental health policies and hiring more police officers, so that the work load is not 90+% scum of the earth, and better reflects what the REAL criminality rate is in the country.  That way cops do not develop the toxic world view, and treat citizens properly. Citizens then return to trusting police, and we have fewer and fewer instances of "Thin blue line!" bullshit happening.

When our police forces are basically the Stanford Prison Experiment, shit gets real fast. 

[Virtz]

It's based on media coverage and narratives, not reality.

No. It's based on the body count and the absolute disregard for civilian life we've been seeing _for years._ This isn't spin.

There may be 8500000 cops in the US, but when even 10% of those are a) poorly trained b) don't honestly care about preserving human life c) actively want to shoot someone in the line of duty, it creates a state of fear for everyone. So there are cops that are good at their jobs. When are those cops going to drown out the bad ones? Oh wait they don't, because law enforcement is a fraternal order that closes ranks immediately even when they're know they've completely fucked up, and officers that actively try to combat shitty police culture are shoved out of the force.

And here's the real difference: you can't control what criminals will do. Because they're criminals. They don't abide by the law to begin with. We HIRE and TRAIN police and then act like we ultimately have no control over what they do? What's the fucking difference between a cop and a crook if they both do whatever the hell they want and people die unnecessarily? The fact that the police say they're the good guys?

I get the feeling you're pulling that 10% out of ass, for starters. The 3000 yearly shootings that actually happen ain't even done by 0.01% of police, and again, most of them are fully justified. Your "don't honestly care about preserving human life" thing is also pretty untrue, as 2/3rds of those shot by police survive, usually thanks in part to first aid provided by those same cops.

And second, there's no such thing as 100% effective training of a human being and there never will be. It's also impossible to vet who gets hired with full effectiveness, because you can never be certain what's kicking around in someone's head (or what will be after they get assaulted, or they watch the nth mangled car wreck victim that month). Human error happens, and no amount of training can prepare you for sudden dangerous situations that happen like once or twice in your lifetime.

And once again you look at body count, but completely ignore the possibility that most of those deaths were not the police's fault and would be the same were any other armed police around the world to deal with them. Your activists lament the death of specific people who actively resisted arrest and tried to pull guns on police. These sorts of shitheads would be dead in most other parts of the world for doing that. Thus it is my opinion that it is your culture of violently resisting police that leads to these numbers, and you're crying wolf and seeking blame in everyone but yourselves.

Here in the US, everyone is afraid to pay what labor is actually worth at every level, and want to pretend that people going fucking nuts because they are being over-exposed to criminality and ending up with PTSD is a normal part of the job, and people that want relief are just "fucking pansies."

I would note that in addition to this, police don't want people with a record of mental instability representing them, because that's ammunition for the legal defendants and shitty activists. Basically any court case where a policeman with a documented history of mental issues is involved is going to be put at risk. It's PR and law driven, thanks again to anti-police culture. And police themselves are pretty unhappy about it, as it leads to many suicides.

A little note on the ACAB attitude some of us have. (All Cops Are Bastards) Basically, the fact that even in cases where cops were clearly in the wrong, the others defend the cop who fucked up/committed murder/etc. Add this to the fact that people who "snitch" on the cops, by filing lawsuits against the department, etc, are often threatened and harassed - presumably by other cops, because who else would.

And then there are the police unions - they resist disarmament, demilitarization, and any consequences for union members. While I understand that part of this, defending cops in court, is literally part of their job, the others are not. They don't advocate for actual counseling to fight PTSD, they don't want to give up their APCs and assault rifles, and they resist change always, it seems.

All these, in addition to the overuse of SWAT teams, informs our view.

Pretty much nobody's defending the recent home shooting, not even their police chief.

And why would they need to give up APCs and rifles? Have they somehow abused them, or are you just unhappy that antifa throwing rocks and bottles is pretty unimpressive to an APC?