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[Rolan7]

Huh, good to see that you do recognize that argument after all.

But, yeah...  Even though the 911 operator (apparently wrongly) described the caller as female, and suspect was clearly on something, there's no real defense for them striking him to death.  Sounds like they struck him in the face, which is inherently dangerous.  They should have tazed him.

Though he did have a heartbeat prior to transport, and he apparently died of liver failure, so...  Even this isn't cut-and-dry.  Even though there was apparently swelling in his head, presumably from the melee.

[SalmonGod]

I do recognize that argument, and I accept it in cases where an officer's in a situation that's established as dangerous.  I don't accept it in cases where the officer is the one who made the situation dangerous, or was simply paranoid.

And yeah... it's not clear that this guy died from the beating.  But that was intended to be a more general comment, since there have been many people killed by reckless handling or beatings.

[Rolan7]

Yeah...
I think he probably did get beat to death ):
I like to point out that there's doubt, but...  Ugh.  It really sounds like they went farther than necessary and got the guy killed.
Edit:  I mean "killed the guy".

[smjjames]

Yeah, it certainly seems like theres more to it than just the purely getting beaten up. The article does say the kidneys failed, but not whether that was from blunt force trauma or OD'ng on something.

And yeah, it was meant as a more general comment as Baltimore PD got into trouble again and as a more general excessive force and uneccesary action. Plus the fact that the police really aren't trained to be able to deal with someone having some sort of mental episode or are high on something and aren't posing a threat to themselves and others.

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah...
I think he probably did get beat to death ):
I like to point out that there's doubt, but...  Ugh.  It really sounds like they went farther than necessary and got the guy killed.
Edit:  I mean "killed the guy".

I mean, even if he didn't die as a direct consequence of the beating, getting beaten never helps. Could easily have aggravated his system badly enough that whatever was in it killed him because it couldn't handle the additional stress and started failing.

[Rolan7]

Yeah well, being accosted by police never *helps* one's general health.  *I* know that, and my dad actually had to go to prison a few times.
What I'm saying goes a bit farther than that.

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah well, being accosted by police never *helps* one's general health.  *I* know that, and my dad actually had to go to prison a few times.
What I'm saying goes a bit farther than that.

If he had drugs in his system and died of liver failure, I don't know if he would've died had he not been on something. That doesn't make it okay, since that's still far and away excessive force.

[Sergarr]

Post Nation
‘I’m going to hit him’: Dash-cam video shows officers tried to run over man before shooting him 14 times

“F— this guy,” the officer says before aiming his police cruiser at the mentally ill homeless man that he and his partner had been sent out to confront. “I”m going to hit him.”

“Okay, go for it. Go for it,” his partner responds, his voice recorded on the Sacramento police cruiser’s dash cam.

Twice, the man dodges their accelerating cruiser. In the second attempt, he leaps into a median, barely avoiding the vehicle.

But Joseph Mann, 51, could not escape the volley of bullets that followed moments later.

Mann died in the street shortly after that July 11 shooting. Mann’s family has accused officers Randy Lozoya and John Tennis of escalating the situation and showing no regard for his life, even before they jumped out of the car, fired 18 bullets and shot Mann 14 times.

GTA IRL, GG.

[Frumple]

Don't seem to notice anything about more than desk duty, either, even after months of police having the exact film. Because somehow the appropriate administrative response to shit like this is to make the perpetrators push paper while you shove not just your thumb but your entire sodding arm up your ass and do jack all. Obvious response to evidence like that isn't to throw the pieces of shit in jail until trial if they're wearing blue. That's apparently how things work in this country

I mean, I can understand investigation and whatnot takes time, particularly when there's complicating elements or whathaveyou. But they've let us know they had stuff that uncomplicated it real damn hard, and chose not to. S'just... cops. Shit, some of you are literal family to me, though several states away. You guys need to realize there's a time to close ranks and a time to throw some fuckers under the bus. And the frequency isn't always and never, respectively.

How trying to mitigate response (like keeping the film under wraps, ferex, or not fast tracking everything involved and getting the officers fired, in jail, and trumpeted as an example of police policing their own) seems like even remotely a good idea I have no goddamn clue. Open and shut case of police malfeasance, of the sort that revealing and coming down on with a hammer would not only drastically improve public relations but be the right thing to do regardless, and it turns out someone out there thought trying to cover ass was the right path forward. You'd think someone would get the goddamn idea already, but circumstances seem intent on repeatedly demonstrating otherwise.

Which I guess isn't saying anything that hasn't already been said, but bloody hell.

[RedKing]

It's been interesting trying to explain the situation in Charlotte to my kids. As white, reasonably middle-class children, police probably ARE a safe haven for them. I don't want to teach them to inherently mistrust the police, but at the same time I'm not going to sugarcoat it. My daughter was horrified that the police would shoot someone who wasn't actively trying to hurt someone.

[Egan_BW]

That's horrifying.

[Silverthrone]

Oh, dear, oh dear... Officers Lozoya, Tennis... I do not believe either of you tried at all.

Now, with that said, he was wielding a knife, and was effectively a dangerous lunatic at large. But it just seems so brazen to not even try to follow procedure and contain the situation. It's as if they just skimmed down the checklist until they reached the last, last, last resorts and went in for the kill. Of course, sometimes procedure doesn't work, and the policemen have to shoot the maniac down to protect themselves and others, but the point is that they didn't even bother with anything else. Despite there apparently being procedures for it. At some point, it goes beyond being jumpy and just being uninterested in any solution but the violent ones.

The department and the city trying to wait it out is another big failure in this. Some action, some explanation, and a bit less of those determinedly tight lips would've helped. I'd say it's fair to assume that they hoped it'll all blow over by itself (You know, black, mental case, drug abuse, probably right at the bottom score in the 'who is likely to care?' table), and did their damndest to help it do so.

It's been interesting trying to explain the situation in Charlotte to my kids. As white, reasonably middle-class children, police probably ARE a safe haven for them. I don't want to teach them to inherently mistrust the police, but at the same time I'm not going to sugarcoat it. My daughter was horrified that the police would shoot someone who wasn't actively trying to hurt someone.

Good call, I say. As a decent rule of thumb to teach, most policemen are fine, but some aren't. It's impossible to know which is which, but chances are that they're the good guys. Even so, tell them to do precisely as the rozzers say, on the off-chance they're the rotten ones and are looking for a reason to cause some hurt. Inherent mistrust against the entire police corps as a concept is a good thing to avoid, but a certain suspicion against individual officers might be a healthy habit to get. It might help to say that they're people, after all, and most people are good people, but some are very bad people indeed.

It's a really rotten life-lesson to teach, but the fact is that their background does mean they're safer around the rozzers. Even so, politeness and caution (which is honestly useful in most situations anyway, come to think of it).

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It's been interesting trying to explain the situation in Charlotte to my kids. As white, reasonably middle-class children, police probably ARE a safe haven for them. I don't want to teach them to inherently mistrust the police, but at the same time I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

Don't be so sure. We've reached the point where we're all in danger from the killer cops, black people moreso, but the spate of killings at predominantly white colleges shows the transition to a system with more equal abuse for all.

[SalmonGod]

Can't dig it up now, but there were solid numbers put out a while back showing that police kill white and black people in roughly equal numbers.  But black people suffer non-fatal violent treatment by police at a much higher rate, and iirc it also verified that the circumstances are far more likely to be dubious with black suspects.

[Strife26]

Is this a routine traffic stop (five sentences or less)
|-No
"Am I being detained?"
|-Yes
"I'd like to invoke my right to have a lawyer present."

All others- gtfo ASAP.