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[XXSockXX]

I think the solutions that work in europe wouldn't work here. they would be a round peg for a square hole.

That is probably true. But we arrogant Europeans love to tell Americans that they should be more like us, so bear with it. 

Also, no one actually votes for them, as it's hard to get details on their cases. I just skip voting for them because I don't know which way to vote, unless the judge did something especially heinous. My mom just votes them all back in.

And that does not convince you that elected judges are a terrible idea? They're appointed by... a few random people who bother to vote?

But juries are like the most important part of the process, (that all the smart people get out of.)

Aha, so the smart people are not in the juries...

[smeeprocket]

I think the solutions that work in europe wouldn't work here. they would be a round peg for a square hole.

That is probably true. But we arrogant Europeans love to tell Americans that they should be more like us, so bear with it. 

Also, no one actually votes for them, as it's hard to get details on their cases. I just skip voting for them because I don't know which way to vote, unless the judge did something especially heinous. My mom just votes them all back in.

And that does not convince you that elected judges are a terrible idea? They're appointed by... a few random people who bother to vote?

But juries are like the most important part of the process, (that all the smart people get out of.)

Aha, so the smart people are not in the juries...

Yes and it all works perfectly well tyvm... unless you are a minority, poor, a rape victim, someone who fought back against your domestic abuser, you know, this list gets kind of long so I'll stop it here.

The problem is a lack of resources, at least for me. I can't find the info on the judges easily, I'd have to get access to the cases and go through them myself. I love voting, but I am not nearly that motivated.

Personally I just had my shrink tell them I was too crazy to be on a jury. But in my defense, my appearance would get me ruled off any jury, and it would just be a waste of time.

But yea, no one wants to actually perform the whole "social responsibility" thing, we all just have to sign into that to vote.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[smeeprocket]

It's weird, really: Law systems are something one hardly ever thinks about, but from past discussions of the same topic I've learned that people have some very strong, deep-seated opinions of them. You'll find no continental European here who'd be comfortable with juries, and no American who'd want to abolish them.

I'm an American and I don't have any particular love of juries. The Michael Brown case seems like a pretty good example of their fallibility.

Yea but do you think the judge, by himself, wouldn't have come to the same conclusion, or that if would be different if the judge was hired rather than elected?

The system itself is broken, any iterations will be equally broken.

[XXSockXX]

But yea, no one wants to actually perform the whole "social responsibility" thing, we all just have to sign into that to vote.

I understand that and probably would not want to vote for stuff I can't form an opinion about or sit in a jury either. But if only weirdos and people with an agenda are influencing that part of the system, that means that that part of the system is broken and should be changed.

[smeeprocket]

But yea, no one wants to actually perform the whole "social responsibility" thing, we all just have to sign into that to vote.

I understand that and probably would not want to vote for stuff I can't form an opinion about or sit in a jury either. But if only weirdos and people with an agenda are influencing that part of the system, that means that that part of the system is broken and should be changed.

I just don't see a better solution that would work in our country.

And nothing is going anywhere with the current political climate. You have the conservatives who are seriously dead set on dragging us back to the 50s, we've actually lost ground during this decade, things have gotten noticeably worse for the first time in a long time.

They are getting more rabid and racist and piggish, too. Like Fox News is feeding their behavior. They just say and do unforgivable things and somehow get a platform to do it all from. Our news media is a complete joke, all around.

No one likes congress, but everyone wants them to keep doing the things they hate them doing, and last election they voted for more of the same.

[Bohandas]

Ultimately what we need is MORE apathy, but about different things then we are apathetic about now.

We need for EVERY case to be prosecuted the way the Darren Wilson case was.

Furthermore, anybody who wants to become a cop and when asked "why do you want this position" answers with anything other than a variation of "I need a job and this is what was available" should be immediately disqualified from consideration.

[smjjames]

But yea, no one wants to actually perform the whole "social responsibility" thing, we all just have to sign into that to vote.

I understand that and probably would not want to vote for stuff I can't form an opinion about or sit in a jury either. But if only weirdos and people with an agenda are influencing that part of the system, that means that that part of the system is broken and should be changed.

I just don't see a better solution that would work in our country.

And nothing is going anywhere with the current political climate. You have the conservatives who are seriously dead set on dragging us back to the 50s, we've actually lost ground during this decade, things have gotten noticeably worse for the first time in a long time.

They are getting more rabid and racist and piggish, too. Like Fox News is feeding their behavior. They just say and do unforgivable things and somehow get a platform to do it all from. Our news media is a complete joke, all around.

No one likes congress, but everyone wants them to keep doing the things they hate them doing, and last election they voted for more of the same.

Yeah, I tried to vote for Duncan Hunters democratic opponent, but nope. The tea party guy Demaio also got voted in.

I don't know, sometimes it seems like the only way to fix things is to experience a hard crash and then rebuild from there.

You know, have any countries gone through something like a hard crash which rearranges their political system? I know theres Russia, but not that disastrous. I don't think the US has gone through anything like that politically, within living memory anyway.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[smeeprocket]

It's weird, really: Law systems are something one hardly ever thinks about, but from past discussions of the same topic I've learned that people have some very strong, deep-seated opinions of them. You'll find no continental European here who'd be comfortable with juries, and no American who'd want to abolish them.

I'm an American and I don't have any particular love of juries. The Michael Brown case seems like a pretty good example of their fallibility.

Yea but do you think the judge, by himself, wouldn't have come to the same conclusion, or that if would be different if the judge was hired rather than elected?

The system itself is broken, any iterations will be equally broken.

No, I don't think they'd be any better. But I'm not going to act like that's a defense of juries - they suck as much as anything else.

I think elected judges by themselves would be best in an ideal country, but that would require better elections and better media than we have.

no no no, the judges we have are awful. just awful. I don't think you could even get the public interested in researching their rulings to see if they are actually suitable for the job. I don't think we even have enough suitable candidates to fill the positions and not be a problem that juries aren't at least a little less problematic for.

[Sheb]

Yeah, so don't have the judges elected. Bam, problem solved.

[smeeprocket]

Yeah, so don't have the judges elected. Bam, problem solved.

instead, elected officials would appoint the judges, and that hasn't worked out well for us in the past,

[Helgoland]

You know, have any countries gone through something like a hard crash which rearranges their political system? I know theres Russia, but not that disastrous. I don't think the US has gone through anything like that politically, within living memory anyway.

Germany. We're the prime example for the phoenix-like rebirth of a civilized society.

A friend of mine likes to argue that the US has so many political problems because it has never lost a war, and thus never was forced to adopt radical changes. Remember, Prussia only became a modern state after being beaten into a pulp and then occupied by Napoleon - and sixty years later, it was mopping the floor with some of the most powerful states in Europe.

[nenjin]

A friend of mine likes to argue that the US has so many political problems because it has never lost a war, and thus never was forced to adopt radical changes. Remember, Prussia only became a modern state after being beaten into a pulp and then occupied by Napoleon - and sixty years later, it was mopping the floor with some of the most powerful states in Europe.

I pretty much agree with this. Americans crow a lot about America because we've never tangibly had our asses handed to us. It is a mentality I'd love to punch a large, bloody fist hole through. And I live here. I'm so sick of hearing about how exceptional we are despite the data showing we're not. The only exceptional things America does anymore is: entertainment (depending on what kind we're talking about) and making war.

RE: Judges. I don't think the problem is that they're elected by popular vote.

It's that most people don't pay attention to what they do, and tend to rubber stamp them on election ballots when their time comes. I know I've done that. Below the primary candidates for office, and the special issues on the ballot, you get a lot of places for voting on minor county/state officials, and judges. I don't know these people, usually, what their politics are or what they've done. I think that reflects the experience of most American voters. Judges get a pass often because, unless they make the news for saying something really stupid or abusing their powers obviously in court, no one cares.

I generally agree with the principle that judges should be elected rather than appointed so they can retain their judicial independence....but I feel like they need special elections all their own, divorced from the usual county/state elections. That might give both media and the people more time to figure out who these people are, and whether they deserve a vote.

[Sheb]

You guys should stop acting like you're the only country in the world. There are alternative beyond "Elected the Judge" and "Have Elected McCritter appoints him". I'm not going to expand on how we do things in Belgium, because it's quite complex and I can't remember it all, but it means we end up with competent, accountable, independent people in charge.