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[Propman]

Racism is just one thing among a proverbial laundry list of things wrong with the current US police force, and is possibly being used as a mask for the even less scrupulous actions committed by the police as of late. Most of them are corrupted to a more general degree, and will generally use their status to muscle against anybody they have beef with, up to and including politicians. Basically, the American police have their own "culture" separate from that of your average US citizen, and many of them view things in terms of how they better the police force as a political organization, rather then an institute that is supposedly meant to enforce the law; they'll lobby for whomever gives them the biggest raise, and they'll overlook their fellows' infractions so long as their fellows ignore theirs. The NYPD is notorious for this, even though they've been trying to reform for years after getting flack for such actions repeatedly.

What's more, the distrust between the public and the enforcers generally only strengthens these practices, as why would they want to protect a bunch of people that loathe them?

In short; getting rid of racism in the force won't stop them from being ineffectual corrupt hicks, it'll just make them politically-correct ineffectual corrupt hicks. A major reform in both leadership and structure is needed.

[Helgoland]

I think what I'm trying to say is that while there is a race aspect to this, it's more of an aftereffect: the US is still by and large a racist society (Not that other countries are much different), so when police shit hits the civilian fan, blacks are going to suffer more from it.

Most other developed countries are blessed with an ethnically more homogenous population, yes - racism against black people is hardly relevant in Germany because there's so few of them. AFAIK the first time I even saw a black person was when I was already in kindergarten, and my sister was very embarassed because of my gawking...

[Owlbread]

Most other developed countries are blessed with an ethnically more homogenous population, yes - racism against black people is hardly relevant in Germany because there's so few of them. AFAIK the first time I even saw a black person was when I was already in kindergarten, and my sister was very embarassed because of my gawking...

I can say with confidence that the number of black people living and working within a 60 mile radius of my house would number <20. It may even be <10, and that's not a typo. Considering over 140,000 people live within a 60 mile radius of my house you get the picture. Even in a country as white as mine there are traditional conflicts between the police and the ethnic Irish Catholic population and the South Asians. Even when they're policing white people and not really abusing anyone they're still broadly very unpleasant to deal with and manage to create a sense of "otherness" between you and them regardless of racial difference.

[smeeprocket]

The only people that are saying that race isn't what matters here are the people that do not have this threat to deal with because of their race.

No they are peoples that live in a country with a functional police force.
The black cops shoot 78% of Black men, it's in the study. It's not white supremacism.


Everything else is wrong with your police, but the amount of racism seems rather average ( though I do understand that American are more racist than us in the sense that they generally give race a lot more importance).

Edit :or to say it another way, your police could be twice as racist, if you had decent rule of engagement, training, policing philosophy and prosecution policies you wouldn't have a black men murder by the police problem (you'd still have the huge black on black violence problem, that one would be solved by schools).

oh ffs black on black crime. First, your statistic about black cops is wrong because the majority of cops are white. I want to see some actual data to support your statement there.

Second, you act like black people, by virtue of their upbringing, are more morally flawed than whites. The vast majority of white crime is white on white, hispanic crime is hispanic on hispanic, so forth and so on. So don't feed me that racist crap about black on black crime unless you want to talk about the epidemic in America of white on white crime (we could solve this with better schools, tho, I'm sure.)

[Baffler]

Racism is just one thing among a proverbial laundry list of things wrong with the current US police horse, and is possibly being used as a mask for the even less scrupulous actions committed by the police as of late. Most of them are corrupted to a more general degree, and will generally use their status to muscle against anybody they have beef with, up to and including politicians. Basically, the American police have their own "culture" separate from that of your average US citizen, and many of them view things in terms of how they better the police horse as a political organization, rather then an institute that is supposedly meant to enforce the law; they'll lobby for whomever gives them the biggest raise, and they'll overlook their fellows' infractions so long as their fellows ignore theirs. The NYPD is notorious for this, even though they've been trying to reform for years after getting flack for such actions repeatedly.

What's more, the distrust between the public and the enforcers generally only strengthens these practices, as why would they want to protect a bunch of people that loathe them?

In short; getting rid of racism in the horse won't stop them from being ineffectual corrupt hicks, it'll just make them politically-correct ineffectual corrupt hicks. A major reform in both leadership and structure is needed.

There was actually a big stink a couple years ago in a regionally important (but still small) city near my home town where these two police officers would stop people they knew had been selling drugs. That in itself isn't too unusual of course, but instead of arresting them they would just take the money for themselves and let the person they stopped be off on their merry way, noting their plates of course so they can keep an eye out for them and shake them down some more later. Nobody cared about the blatant corruption though, because they were doing this in a predominantly black neighborhood so they were just painted as racist instead of corrupt. They were fired, but I don't think they were prosecuted.

[Frumple]

oh ffs black on black crime. First, your statistic about black cops is wrong because the majority of cops are white. I want to see some actual data to support your statement there.

... you're forgetting ph's earlier post, which notes not that black cops cause 78% of total police-on-black shootings, but that of the ones they do shoot, 78% are still black. The bit you're quoting is a mild misstatement. Insofar as actual points in contrast to the position Ph is trying to build by quoting the number in question, it's strongly worth noting that institutional racism is a thing, and it is entirely possible to be racist against one's own race. That minority LEOs also disproportionately target minorities doesn't really mean much insofar as general institutional equality goes. Doesn't mean that corruption and whatnot still isn't a larger problem, but it doesn't necessarily mean that racism within the system is reduced in magnitude and impact, either.

As for the general thread of thought that reducing or eliminating racism within the police force somehow wouldn't help, I... just have to look at those making the claim with extreme askance. If we could bring the levels of excess down to what's performed against non-minorities, that would frankly be a goddamn coup and a major improvement. Even if, by some incredibly unlikely occurrence, things met half-way, it would still be a notable step forward. This apparent sentiment that correcting for racism would do little to nothing to improve the situation is just... off. Fix everything, of course not, but major freaking improvement? Almost certainly.

[smeeprocket]

I think it's a problem where a lot of white people want to make it about themselves also.

Like if they recognize that there is a much bigger problem with this for other races than for white people, their race won't be getting the attention they feel it deserves. Or perhaps its a desire to avoid admitting things are inherently unfair in our world to a great degree, in a manner that their race benefits from.

Yes cops are corrupt and they hurt people besides black people, but there is an overwhelming difference in treatment with black versus white individuals, and that extends to juries and judges, as well.

Corruption in general is bad, and there is really no accountability, but the racist aspect IS the larger part of the picture, it weighs in heavily and has the biggest impact.

Trivializing it is really just part of the problem. If you don't acknowledge it as an issue, and try to distract from it, it can not be fixed.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[smeeprocket]

As for the general thread of thought that reducing or eliminating racism within the police force somehow wouldn't help, I... just have to look at those making the claim with extreme askance. If we could bring the levels of excess down to what's performed against non-minorities, that would frankly be a goddamn coup and a major improvement. Even if, by some incredibly unlikely occurrence, things met half-way, it would still be a notable step forward. This apparent sentiment that correcting for racism would do little to nothing to improve the situation is just... off. Fix everything, of course not, but major freaking improvement? Almost certainly.

No, see, if you end racism then the cops will stop before they shoot an unarmed black guy, go "Oh, we've hit our quota on black guys already" and go shoot an innocent white person to keep things even. There'll be the same number of shootings, just spread around more. That's equal opportunity for you.

Really, black people getting shot just needs to keep happening to protect valuable white people from getting shot. I mean the cops do have to kill -someone-.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Phmcw]

it is entirely possible to be racist against one's own race.

As if the most likely senario was that black cops in the US are white supremacist... that's simply ridiculous at that point.

that would frankly be a goddamn coup and a major improvement.

You can, you'll just need a major education boost across every social class in America, less social divide so peoples don't go looking for scapgegoat, a major boost to the average Black american wealth and education so that the stereotype lose all ground in reality and while you're at it proportional representation across all institutions. Don't forget that all area should be mixed race and you should therefore make black only and white only neighborhood disapear at all cost.


Be my guest, I'm just watching.


At that point you'll just have a trigger happy "police" force that still doesn't serve its purpose and still cannot be held accountable for anything, but will stop targeting black men disproportionally.

[Frumple]

As if the most likely senario was that black cops in the US are white supremacist... that's simply ridiculous at that point.

There is a notable, and often fairly extreme, difference between racist and white supremacist.

[Phmcw]

There is a notable, and often fairly extreme, difference between racist and white supremacist.

If you're not white supremacist, I don't see why you'd go around killing black peoples.

[XXSockXX]

I'd say too, if you want to see change sooner rather than later, do something about how your policeforce is trained and how they're held accountable. For example having poorly trained officers armed with military grade weaponry they can't properly handle is pretty insane and totally unnecessary.

From a European perspective it looks like US police is very trigger-happy, which is part of the general American gun-violence problem. That's not gonna change though, and it is almost pointless to discuss that.

I wouldn't deny that racism is an aspect in this on several levels (on an individual level and as the root cause of the structural poverty that makes blacks more likely to be or to be perceived as criminals). Still you're neither going to "end" racism nor will there be a social safety net to end poverty in the US, so the police is the only thing you can realistically change in the short term.

[Bauglir]

There is a notable, and often fairly extreme, difference between racist and white supremacist.

If you're not white supremacist, I don't see why you'd go around killing black peoples.

Because you expect them to be dangerous criminals and so, as a police officer, you feel threatened by them and are more likely to use excessive force because you don't see it as effective. Very few people in America are racist as in, "Black people are subhuman and need to be eliminated", but there are tons who are racist as in, "Black people are likelier to be criminals, so I should be on guard around them".

Saying, "racism isn't the problem" is missing the point by a pretty huge degree. "The" problem is that police are killing and hurting people they shouldn't be killing and hurting, which is obviously too broad and vague to actually approach. If you're going to try and fix it, you'll have to break it down into subproblems, of which "Police feel overly threatened by the people" is certainly one, and "Lots of people, police included, are racist" is a very damn solid contributor to that. It also contributes to lots of other problems! But looking for one keystone thing that you can solve to make the entire problem collapse is a fool's errand, and so is dismissing racism as relevant because it doesn't fit the criteria you're looking for.