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Author Topic: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!  (Read 799015 times)

nenjin

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1140 on: February 12, 2015, 02:35:22 pm »

A battle layout like Dominions would be sweet. It'd allow us to set up different arrangements to see what's effective in what situations. Right now, all fights are pretty much enemies hitting a wall of vehicles and dreadnoughts and getting wiped out.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1141 on: February 12, 2015, 02:39:36 pm »

I think it's very important that combat is clearly from the point of view of the chapter master himself. Duel a Eldar Wraithlord and mebbe you can't focus on the naval exchanges. If you want a smooth safe strategic position then i hope you like your bunk.
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nenjin

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1142 on: February 12, 2015, 04:05:11 pm »

Duels are really something iconic to 40k too. It would be great to simulate them. Like if the boss mob of an army closes within x distance of your highest ranking Space Marine, they square off against each other. While it actually might result in more dead Space Marines, I feel like it'd let the enemies be a lot more threatening than they are now.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

varsovie

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1143 on: February 12, 2015, 04:08:23 pm »

Import Dwarf Fortress' combat system for the duels please!  :P
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Retropunch

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1144 on: February 12, 2015, 05:03:50 pm »

I'd love a dominions style thing, but I'd even be happy with a sort advanced of Endless Space style system (rock-paper-scissors) to add a bit more tactical interest.

For instance,
You could have three or four stages in the battle where you (and the enemy) can issue commands.
Some of these would directly counter other commands ('dig in' could defeat 'long range barrage' for instance) whilst others may just continue the battle but have some utility ('Battlefield surgery' for instance could heal a number of your troops, 'tactical interrogation' could make enemies easier to hit in the next round).
If these could be worked in to be more tactical that would make it really, really fun: so depending on your force composition, your enemy and possibly even where you're fighting it would make a difference for what the best strategies are.
These could all be text based and wouldn't have to have any fancy animations, but would allow you to be involved in battles and give the game a more tactical edge.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1145 on: February 14, 2015, 01:45:57 am »

Trying to run it on my laptop thing, but won't display my marines. Says 'color swap shader did not compile' instead. Runs fine, just can't see them. Hardware issue, I'm guessing?
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halosammy

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1146 on: February 16, 2015, 04:15:38 am »

Been a while since last update. New chapter coming?
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DukeFluffy

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1147 on: February 16, 2015, 10:35:51 pm »

Been a while since last update. New chapter coming?
Soon.  New patch probably tomorrow, Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens both seem likely some point soon after that.

Been mostly bug fixing and brainstorming on how combat should work.  Some of the ideas in this thread are helpful.

quindraco

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1148 on: February 17, 2015, 04:00:17 pm »

Other:
Messed around with the Marine Damage Resistance formula a lot and determined that it works fine as is.  Variants tried involved different Damage Multiplier, removing half the armor from the starting damage and end damage, and so on.  If anyone wishes to mathhammer it themselves and try to find a better formula it currently works as follows:
-Damage Multiplier: 0.7 - ((Marine Experience * Marine Experience) /40000), minimum of 0.25         Displayed damage resistance is ((1 - Damage Multiplier) * 100)%
-Damage Result: (Damage * Damage Multiplier) - Marine Armor

Just to help brainstorm how combat could work (I really have no idea how it does work right now): It's always been a mainstay of Warhammer combat mechanics that armor is relative - the harder you're hit, the more damage your armor soaks.  This means the above arithmetic betrays that fundamental idea; one immediate contradiction is that good enough armor theoretically reduces incoming damage to 0 (which warhammer armor can't do).

The extent to which you want to model warhammer combat is probably iffy, because the tabletop includes some really bizarre rules interactions like cover making you more damage resistant in a way ballistic skill can't fix, even though allegedly most cover just makes you harder to hit.

Here's some base math for simulating Warhammer combat, fixing as little wackiness as possible, and skipping the step for rolling to hit:

marine hit points = wounds on profile * 46656//This is 6**6, enough to cope with rolling to wound, save, and FNP, with or without rerolls on any of them.
Basic combat (no rerolling, marine is T4, W1, Sv 3, FNP -):
svt = max(min(strength-toughness+3,5),min(strength-toughness+4,1),0)//Extra min is because you can still wound on 6+ against s+3.
if(armor<penetration){realarmor=armor-1}else{realarmor=6}//2..7 scale, where 7 is armor or AP -
svta = realarmor*svt//Odds of overcoming toughness times overcoming armor
svta *= 6**4 //missing pieces: rerolling failed wounds, failed saves, and both base and rerolled FNP; this result is how much damage the marine takes from the hit.

It should be obvious how to work in instant kill at this point, but many special rules cause all sorts of checks in the above logic, so I left them out.  All this does is apply expected probability of wounding as static values, so you always deal the same damage rather than rolling.

The above rules are kind of awful, as I mentioned (for example, I left it out, but you'd apply the better of armor and cover, rather than having them stack and apply to different steps in the attack process, like we expect in every other game, Dark Heresy included). If you're your own Chapter Master, you're also going to want to be able to do things like give your Scouts Storm Shields, at which point the power armor becomes a waste of time under the tabletop rules.  Skipping the intermediary logic, I suggest this for a shooting attack:

hit points = wounds*(6**8)//Now including to-hit, due to incorporating a marine being harder to hit
hitpiece = 6*max(ballistic-cover,1)//It's always possible to hit, but ballistic skill and cover duke it out in terms of real odds; very high ballistic skill overflows into excess damage.
//Note on Cover here: count up from 0, so 0 is cover - and 5 is cover 2+.
//Extra 6 is because we're not doing rerolls to hit.
woundpiece = 6*hitpiece*max(strength-toughness+3,min(strength-toughness+4,1),0)//Very high strength now elegantly overflows into damage, precluding any need for a manual rule about instant killing when s=2t.
//Extra 6 is because we're not doing rerolls to wound.
armorpiece = 6*woundpiece*(6-max(armor-penetration,0))//armor now degrades with penetration, like strength does with toughness and bs now does with cover.
//Note on Armor and Penetration: count up from 0, so 0 is - and 5 is 2+ armor or AP 2.
//Extra 6 is because we're not doing rerolls on armor save.
And so on.  I would suggest invulnerability as an additional save after armor (you'll need to explode out the hit point total again, if you want to be able to cope with reroll mechanics on it), with Feel No Pain forcing rerolls on successful wounds rather than the current rule of it being the additional save.
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nenjin

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1149 on: February 17, 2015, 04:14:59 pm »

I can kinda see why armor doesn't function in CM like it does in the table top. With the # of attacks, it's highly likely that your Chapter master or whoever will get dropped by something insignificant. In table top, that's kind of OK. You can see the fig that did it, you have a lot of control over exposing your guys to danger.

CM, none of that is in your hands and you can't really control for it, let alone pick out the one dude who shot you and you failed your 90% chance armor save. It's not super conducive to the RPG feel of the game for your guys to be that at risk.

On the other hand, it has created an all or nothing situation for combat, where you're either dominating (orks) or getting your asses handed to you (Necrons.)
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

DukeFluffy

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1150 on: February 17, 2015, 04:21:20 pm »

Here's some base math for simulating Warhammer combat, fixing as little wackiness as possible, and skipping the step for rolling to hit:
I've done some mathhammering for Warhammer, 40k, and one-page-40k before, but thank you for bringing this to my attention.  Changing Rosarius, Iron Halos, and other similar equipment to have an invulnerable save instead of their current effects is pretty likely to happen.

I can kinda see why armor doesn't function in CM like it does in the table top. With the # of attacks, it's highly likely that your Chapter master or whoever will get dropped by something insignificant. In table top, that's kind of OK. You can see the fig that did it, you have a lot of control over exposing your guys to danger.

CM, none of that is in your hands and you can't really control for it, let alone pick out the one dude who shot you and you failed your 90% chance armor save. It's not super conducive to the RPG feel of the game for your guys to be that at risk.

On the other hand, it has created an all or nothing situation for combat, where you're either dominating (orks) or getting your asses handed to you (Necrons.)
Directly equating tabletop mechanics into a game is not going to work out well unless you are trying to literally recreate the tabletop.  I've already taken a lot of liberties with mechanics and stats, for example.  You're spot on.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 04:49:05 pm by DukeFluffy »
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Necroman21

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1151 on: February 17, 2015, 04:29:03 pm »

Quick question. When can we expect to move guys to different lines or ranks in combat?
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DukeFluffy

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1152 on: February 17, 2015, 05:24:37 pm »

Quick question. When can we expect to move guys to different lines or ranks in combat?
No idea.  I should probably get on that.


0.6534

Major Changes:
Necron Fleets have been added to the game.

Attack and Armor Penetration have been consolidated into simply 'Damage'.  Weapons that are especially armor piercing are now assigned the 'Armor Piercing' tag, or the reverse, 'Low Penetration' for weapons that cannot into armor.  The relationship with enemy armor is as follows:
   Armor Penetrating tag against Infantry: Ignores armor
   No tag against Infantry: Normal damage
   Low Penetration tag against Infantry: Enemy has 6x armor against the attack
   
   Armor Penetrating tag against Vehicles: Normal damage
   No tag against Vehicles: Enemy has 6x armor against the attack
   Low Penetration tag against Vehicles: Enemy is immune to the attack, no damage   

Other Changes:
The additional Chaplains from 'Reverent Guardians' no longer have bionics by default.
The Tartaros helm now has more secondary color applied with the default coloration.
Ships in transit when you receive a 'Hunt the Fallen' mission no longer jump off the map.
Fixed a bug that sometimes prevented Demanding stuff from other factions.
'Hunt the Fallen' can no longer occur on Space Hulks or Craftworlds.
Conducting multiple trades from the same faction in one turn will now combine the trade fleets if able.
Select All with Attacking now properly adds or removes local forces.
Skitarii are disabled from Trading until the upcoming Imperial Guard/Navy rework.
All hirelings other than Orks now have management artwork.
Techmarines are given Storm Bolters by default instead of Conversion Beam Projectors.
Power Axes may now be selected under Change Equipment and Role Settings.
Power Swords and Power Axes have been increased in price.
Activated Force Weapons have been increased in price and given Splash.
Purchased Crusades are slightly more responsive and should work against Eldar and Tyranids.
Stars should no longer jump off the map when receiving a 'Purge Radical Inquisitor' mission.
Necrons now ignore planetary defenses.  Being, you know, Necrons and all.
Shrine Worlds have been added, and are eligible choices for Homeworlds or Recruiting Worlds.
Adeptus Sororitas hirelings have had their equipment modified.
Fixed a rare crash that happens when Space Hulks spawn.
Stars now check for correct ownership at the start of the first turn.

Rolepgeek

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1153 on: February 17, 2015, 06:17:21 pm »

In all honesty, I think you could almost entirely ignore the table-top. Go by fluff, only use crunch to give us/yourself an idea of vaguely relative power and numbers, and even then, fluff has more import, to my way of thinking. There's plenty of things to simulate or play table-top, and this should be it's own thing. Unique. Not just a table-top simulator with ships.

Basically I'm just trying to give a counter-point to nenjin.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Chapter Master - In the name of the Emperor!
« Reply #1154 on: February 17, 2015, 09:30:07 pm »

Necron Fleets have been added to the game.

I have to ask, are Necron ships horribly destructive as they are in the fluff? Because I remember reading about single ships facing ridiculous odds and coming up on top. So a Necron fleet should be able to trounce anything in the quadrant with no~minimal causalities. Are they that dangerous in Chapter Master? And if so, how the heck is that going to be balanced enough to be fun?
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