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[Frumple]

Definitely different than what I was remembering, then. Seeing about tracking down the info, right now. Apparently the book was done back in '00 and, while the numbers came from cali, were apparently similar to national studies. Which means national studies presumably exist, which is nice. If they can be hunted down, then.

E: I don't suppose one of you folks actually has "Dividing the Child" by Maccoby and Mnookin and can check the references? I wanna' see those national studies ;_;

E2: Though, for what it's worth, this was fairly interesting. Didn't skim the rest of the site to see what its general deal is, but the bit at the bottom in particular seemed to be a bit more verbose on the subject than LB's link.

E3: Comments are actually somewhat non-toxic, too, particularly some of the bits re: selection criteria for custody. Be interesting to know if the standard is still holding a good eight years later.

[penguinofhonor]

There is no scenario involving coercing or tricking another person into marriage that isn't going to end with social approbation. It doesn't exist

Norbit...

In Norbit the villain using her fake baby as a way to force Norbit out of divorce was considered perfectly fine until it was revealed to be fake.

So... no your assessment is incorrect.

This is literally the most Neonivek post I have ever seen.

[LordBucket]

E: I don't suppose one of you folks actually has "Dividing the Child" by Maccoby and Mnookin and can check the references? I wanna' see those national studies ;_;

You can browse most of it on google books.

I'm not going to read the whole book, but found this on page 104:

"The most common form of conflict arose when the mother requested sole physical custody and the father requested joint custody. In about 67 percent of these 131 cases the divorce judgement provided for sole physical custody for the mother, while in about 30 percent of the cases the result was joint physical custody."

"The second most common form of conflict involved each parent requesting sole physical custody. This was true for about 6 percent of out sample, some 53 cases. Two important observations can be made about these cases. First, the outcome in these cases was sole mother custody (45 percent) four times as often as sole father custody (11 percent)."

"In only 14 cases was there conflict because the mother requested joint physical custody and the father requested sole custody. Only in this category does it appear that mothers and fathers were equally successfull..."


I haven't vetted dates or locations or anything though, so due diligence. These might be studies from 40 years ago or something. I don't know. I'll leave that to you.

[Frumple]

Yeah, browse most of it except the references section

Which was what I was looking for -- the site you linked before mentioned that Dividing, insofar as I could parse the footnote, noted that their findings in Cali were pretty similar to national studies. Presumably those studies were used as a reference in the Maccoby & Mnookin text, which should have duly noted them and left a paper trail to follow to the nation level stuff.

I mean, I'm curious, but I'm not sure if I'm quite curious enough to drop a tenner or wait a week or two for an interlibrary loan to come in just to check a book's reference section (and alternative electronic means have failed me, sooo...). Probably read it, too, but mostly for that. Book seems somewhat popular, though, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask if someone just happens to have the text or not. Or maybe are near a library that actually has the text on the shelves or somethin'.

[squelch]No, nevermind, just reviews on jstor. Doesn't look like the text itself is.

[Neonivek]

There is no scenario involving coercing or tricking another person into marriage that isn't going to end with social approbation. It doesn't exist

Norbit...

In Norbit the villain using her fake baby as a way to force Norbit out of divorce was considered perfectly fine until it was revealed to be fake.

So... no your assessment is incorrect.

This is literally the most Neonivek post I have ever seen.

I REALLY hope you mean style and not "Dumb" XD

---

Also Thanks Lord Bucket

[penguinofhonor]

I REALLY hope you mean style and not "Dumb" XD

The choice of movie mainly.

[Neonivek]

I REALLY hope you mean style and not "Dumb" XD

The choice of movie mainly.

I'd ask if it would help if I hated that movie...

But Neonivek hating something or watching something terrible? What new original thinking!

[Phmcw]

I just want to clarify one thing : the right to abortion isn't linked to women's right to their own body. It's linked to the fact that while the feutus is sufficiently small, it is not, in fact, an human being and that there is no ethical difference between aborting within 27 weeks 12 weeks and using a condom.

Now, the fact that the father can't force the mother to get an abortion is linked to the woman's right to her own body.

For me, the "opt out" rule is an evidence, just as you have the right to put your baby for adoption. I honesetly don't see many things to say about it.

Edit : Corrected the number of weeks.

[Gentlefish]

PTW I think I'm actually in agreement with LB on this one.

[Neonivek]

E: I don't suppose one of you folks actually has "Dividing the Child" by Maccoby and Mnookin and can check the references? I wanna' see those national studies ;_;

You can browse most of it on google books.

I'm not going to read the whole book, but found this on page 104:

"The most common form of conflict arose when the mother requested sole physical custody and the father requested joint custody. In about 67 percent of these 131 cases the divorce judgement provided for sole physical custody for the mother, while in about 30 percent of the cases the result was joint physical custody."

"The second most common form of conflict involved each parent requesting sole physical custody. This was true for about 6 percent of out sample, some 53 cases. Two important observations can be made about these cases. First, the outcome in these cases was sole mother custody (45 percent) four times as often as sole father custody (11 percent)."

"In only 14 cases was there conflict because the mother requested joint physical custody and the father requested sole custody. Only in this category does it appear that mothers and fathers were equally successfull..."


I haven't vetted dates or locations or anything though, so due diligence. These might be studies from 40 years ago or something. I don't know. I'll leave that to you.

So basically there is enough here that if someone was a complete freeken liar they could make up whatever the heck statistic they wanted about divorce before you even attempt to question how accurate the source is... Ohh statistics... No matter how accurately you are obtained you still have to be filtered through three people.

[penguinofhonor]

I'd ask if it would help if I hated that movie...

But Neonivek hating something or watching something terrible? What new original thinking!

It wasn't the watching the movie or having an opinion on the movie, it's using Norbit as an example in a serious discussion.

I'm not commenting on its validity as an example, just saying that I would never think to use it here and I can't imagine anyone else doing it besides you.

[LordBucket]

there is no ethical difference between aborting within 27 weeks and using a condom.

This is a religious question. Whether or not you're religious, it's still a religious question. Let me ask: upon what basis do you assert that there is no ethical difference? Others I've spoken to on this topic, if you really get to the heart of their argument...it's that "it doesn't look human yet, therefore it isn't."

That seems rather arbitrary to me.

It's linked to the fact that while the feutus is sufficiently small, it is not, in fact, an human being

Like that.

[Neonivek]

27 weeks? let me see...

6 and half months... Uuuuuuuuuuuuh... Wait days... 189 days... uhhhhh...

That might be quite a bit more advanced then you are thinking and I believe is past certain cut off points.

[LordBucket]

Are you responding to me, or Phmcw? When I said "exactly" I meant that his idea of 27 weeks not counting as human "because it's small" is exactly an example of arbitrarily saying that because it doesn't look human, it isn't. Not that I agreed with him.


Edited previous message for clarity.

[Neonivek]

Are you responding to me, or Phmcw? When I said "exactly" I meant that his idea of 27 weeks not counting as human "because it's small" is exactly an example of arbitrarily saying that because it doesn't look human, it isn't. Not that I agreed with him.

Phmcw...

At first I let it slide because I wasn't really thinking... Then you brought it up and I still let it slide... Then I liked more closely and was like "hmmm what if I converted it to months" and was like "WHOA! uhhh... Its a baby at that point... That even goes past the 100 day limit"