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Author Topic: Abortion father opt-out rule  (Read 7857 times)

GavJ

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 07:07:46 pm »

I didn't come up with the original name, it was just the only one I'd ever heard.

The guy earlier in the thread who mentioned "opt" out" has a much better name, though. Altered the thread to reflect.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 07:10:52 pm »

My father more or less did this when I was about 5, giving up visitation rights and basically any say in my life whatsoever and not paying child support. Now, bare that in mind when I say I am in favour of the right of either or both parents to disavow any responsibility to the child, but in doing so they also disavow any right to the child. Indeed, I'm fine with this as a possibility after the child is even born. Mother or father can abandon their right to the child, if both do then well, that's called putting the child up for adoption.

Best thing some people can do for their child is to gtfo of it's life.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 07:25:34 pm by MorleyDev »
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GavJ

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 07:12:11 pm »

Definitely not an option in my state. At least not a default/statutory option. Where was it that this was allowed, if you don't mind sharing? Or was it some kind of both parents agreed special legal thing or something?
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MorleyDev

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2014, 07:12:58 pm »

In the UK, and it was an agreement reached by him and my mother. Legally they just changed the child support agreement so he didn't pay, and the "gtfo" was a verbal agreement. He still had "Parental Responsibility" due to them being married when I was born, but never exercised it so practically the result was the same.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 07:39:28 pm by MorleyDev »
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LordBucket

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2014, 07:23:32 pm »

Simple concept: Up until whatever point in pregnancy a woman is allowed to legally abort a fetus in a given jurisdiction, the father should also have the ability and the right to sign a piece of paper that disavows all connection with the child legally. No parental rights, no financial obligations.

I think if it were up for vote, I would vote in favor. But even while it solves some problems, it would create problems too. I note, for example, that it creates incentive for fathers to opt out early.  Sure, it would solve the occasional bizarre problem where sperm donors get stuck paying child support for 18 years. Which is absolutely awful. This would solve that, yes. Sure, if you imagine the scenario of one-night-stand where the male had no intent to impregnate, but nevertheless conception occurred...woman decides she wants to keep it, man has no interest...yes, this would address those situations very nicely.

But imagine for example, a tentative couple, neither intended pregnancy, but pregnancy nevertheless occurred. She wants to keep the child, he's on the fence. It wasn't what he planned, it's not what he wants, but he still like the girl, no one is deceiving anyone, they still like each other...but she chooses to keep the child. The safe decision for the guy to make is to sign the paper and walk away. Whereas he might have been willing to "give it a try."

So, yes. It would create some unfortunate results. It would also eliminate some unfortunate results. But on the whole I think it would be more fair and reasonable. I'd vote yes.



I think overall though, that this is a situation I'd rather the government not be involved at all. Male opt out sounds good, but what exactly is the problem that it seeks to address? I assume it's court ordered alimony and child support. So why not simply get rid of these things?


I think society sees a HUGE issue with the idea of a man telling the woman what to do.

We have all these problems with the man having a say, that's a clear indication that we consider this the woman's right to choose, not the mans.

I think this "equality" idea is frequently misapplied. Not all people, not all genders, not all races, not all situations...not all things are equal. Inequality is sometimes a fact of life that can't simply by legislated away. For example: women are naturally biologically capable of becoming pregnant and giving birth. Men are not. Complain all you want, make all the laws you want...doesn't change things.

I think this particular situation is one where it's ok if things are not equal. If the one who is physically carrying a child inside their body has absolutely final say on whether there will be an abortion...I'm ok with that. If men get squeezed out on this one, well...too bad. Sometimes things are unfair. Sometimes we can make them more fair. And sometimes we can't make them more fair. And still other times trying to make them more fair can have terrible consequences. This might be the latter.

I think that woman having absolute final say on the abortion decision is ok. Yes, it's unfair. Yes, it's unequal. That's ok. Sometimes when things are unfair, we're on the "better" side of the unfairness and sometimes we're on the "worse" side of the unfairness. This is an unfair situation that favors women, and I'm ok with it favoring women.

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And when someone has no right to choose, they shouldn't be forced bear the cost of someone else's decision for something they never wanted in the first place.

Agreed. 18 years of court-ordered financial liability for a decision made by somebody else is, in my opinion, unreasonable. And in this case it's an unfairness we can reasonably do something about.

Allow women the final say in abortion. And stop compelling, via threat of force, wage garnishment and jailtime...stop compelling men to pay for children they're not being a father for.


freeformschooler

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2014, 07:49:51 pm »

I think overall though, that this is a situation I'd rather the government not be involved at all. Male opt out sounds good, but what exactly is the problem that it seeks to address? I assume it's court ordered alimony and child support. So why not simply get rid of these things?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Sometimes things are unfair. Sometimes we can make them more fair. And sometimes we can't make them more fair. And still other times trying to make them more fair can have terrible consequences. This might be the latter.

Alimony and child support exist because these things are unfair and uneven. It's not fair that a mother who agrees with her husband to drop her career and raise a child then finds herself both cut off from her husband's money AND totally unemployable except for janitor duty (with much of her paycheck going to the babysitter). Of course, I agree that alimony should be offered to long term stay at home dads if we must have it.

What's the alternate solution? People gotta survive, man. I would agree with GavJ that because these situations must be paid for because otherwise people starve, it would be better for the government to pay money out than the father/mother (and not just paternalistic EBT cards). Isn't that the whole benefit of having a government? So us peasants don't starve or resort to crime to feed ourselves and our kids?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 07:54:10 pm by freeformschooler »
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Neonivek

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2014, 08:13:06 pm »

Women are no longer forced to get abortions because men are no longer forced to be the father of that child... well at least a lot less.

Meaning this law indirectly increases a woman's right to her own body.

As well if this was legal it would likely lead to a patching of all those TERRIBLE forced fatherhood laws that exist in the USA where it is legal for a woman to lie about the father of their child so long as the father is fooled for a certain period of time, after which he is father for life (Interestingly enough this law was passed as a way to protect children... it basically was passed under the "Well, men can take it... Lets not punish the child for the parent's stupidity")

Mind you I firmly believe in child support, I'd hate this law to effectively eliminate it... but the child support laws in both Canada and the USA have needed serious patching for years (mostly they don't adjust enough to income and can become a bit of a noose. It is supposed to be the father OR MOTHER, in the rare case the mother has child support payments, taking responsibility but it shouldn't be a punishment).

Mind you this should also mean that it should be legal for the mother and father to come up with a deal for the mother to transfer her child to the father without child support... but I think that is already possible.

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I think this particular situation is one where it's ok if things are not equal. If the one who is physically carrying a child inside their body has absolutely final say on whether there will be an abortion...I'm ok with that. If men get squeezed out on this one, well...too bad. Sometimes things are unfair. Sometimes we can make them more fair. And sometimes we can't make them more fair. And still other times trying to make them more fair can have terrible consequences. This might be the latter

The issue is the unfairness runs deeper then even that.

It is one thing to say that it is a woman's body and ultimately you cannot force someone to carry a child if they don't want to. Since really no matter what is said, that is really the final line that can never be crossed.

Even to just completely remove their opinion on whether or not they wish to see their child be birthed and consider that to be "perfectly just".

It is UNGODLY unfair for the father... crushingly unfair ("Well your daughter is connected to my body and I have priority so I'll just kill her")... and yet the father is the villain in these situations rather then the understood loser (as in he can't win).

The unfair unfairness to me is just the sort of idea that a man should just take it and that they have no investment or part to play. This sort of dehumanization of fathers and their role... as if they were sperm vending machines that women operate.

Acknowledgement and sympathy is all I am asking.

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On a side note:
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Alimony and child support exist because these things are unfair and uneven. It's not fair that a mother who agrees with her husband to drop her career and raise a child then finds herself both cut off from her husband's money AND totally unemployable except for janitor duty (with much of her paycheck going to the babysitter). Of course, I agree that alimony should be offered to long term stay at home dads if we must have it.

That law existed in a time when it was considered perfectly alright for a man to deprive his wife from working or receiving an education... Something which is considered ridiculous to do today. As I once said to someone if a husband told his wife that she couldn't get a job today she would probably laugh at his face (assuming this wasn't some sort of abusive relationship).

If you are to change it so men get it to you need to change the reasons why it even still exists. Since the law existed because men directly prevent wives from having their own income and thus they are paid for not having a husband to support their enforced lifestyle.

Canada has started changing it and mostly what they do is consider that "stay at home" spouses supply a function and deserve some sort of payment. Basically that the fact that they stay at home gives you the security to amass that fortune. It tends to award less then the 50/50 though.

My personal opinion on it is... Honestly even if you earned that cash with your own hands... throwing someone on the street like that, even if it is their own dang fault for lets say cheating on you, is cold...

At the same time I must say that the idea that the idea of rewarding someone for basically getting married to someone who earns more then them... is compelling... After all if they weren't married they would have definitely got a job that wouldn't have earned them anywhere close to the amount they are getting in the alimony.

It is something I haven't settled in my own head... So I don't have a complete opinion.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 08:21:23 pm by Neonivek »
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LordBucket

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2014, 08:25:32 pm »

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

No. Read who I'm quoting. The second paragraph of mine you quoted is a response to Reelya's comments about men telling women to get abortions, not a response to the OP's proposal to grant men opt-out rights for financial liability.

For example:

Adam: I like red.

Me: Me too.

Sally: I like blue.

Me: I don't.

You: You're contradicting yourself. You can't both like and not like red.


LordBucket

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2014, 09:06:24 pm »

It is UNGODLY unfair for the father... crushingly unfair ("Well your daughter is connected to my body and I have priority so I'll just kill her")... and yet the father is the villain in these situations rather then the understood loser (as in he can't win).

I don't disagree. Yes, it's unfair. But, I'm sorry...this is one that men lose, no matter how unfair it is to them.

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The unfair unfairness to me is just the sort of idea that a man should just take it and that they have no investment or part to play. This sort of dehumanization of fathers and their role... as if they were sperm vending machines that women operate.

Acknowledgement and sympathy is all I am asking.

I grant you that sympathy. I grant you that acknowledgement. I agree it's unfair.


Horror Scenario #1: Woman has final say

Man: "I've wanted all my life to have a child! Do you think he'll be a boy or she'll be a girl? Oh, such happy joy! My life is fulfilled!"

Woman: "Nope. Sorry. Gonna get an abortion. That means 'kill your child' for those who didn't get the euphemism. Too bad for you."

*Man is utterly crushed, hides in his cave to cry himself to asleep because cultural pressure makes it socially unacceptable for him to be so emotionally attached to this*



Absolutely that's unfair. But consider the alternative:

Horror Scenario #2: Man has final say

Woman: I've wanted all my life to have a child! Do you think he'll be a boy or she'll be a girl? Oh, such happy joy! My life is fulfilled!

Man: "Nope. You're going to get an abortion."

Woman: "No, I'm not."

*Man contacts his attorney, fast forward to the end of a court hearing*

Judge: "I, honorable judge, by the power granted to me by the State of California, hereby order Woman to abort her child."

Woman: "I refuse. It's my body, and my child. I won't kill her."

*Armed police show up, put Woman in handcuffed and take her to the abortion clinic.*

Woman: Help! No! Please don't do this to me! I want my child to live!

Doctor: Just relax. This anesthetic will put you to sleep. You won't feel a thing.

*Doctor pulls out his scalpel and starts cutting*


I'm sorry, but #1 "happening sometimes" is better than #2 "happening sometimes." Woman has to have final say on this, because if the man has final say it means a man has the right to legally compel someone else to submit to surgery. What other option is there? Requiring that both parents agree? If the woman wants an abortion, the man has the right to stop her from getting one?


Horror Scenario #3: Both parents must agree

Man: "I've wanted all my life to have a child! Do you think he'll be a boy or she'll be a girl? Oh, such happy joy! My life is fulfilled!"

Woman: "Ugghhh....I feel awful. I'm bloated and sick and...I think something's not right."

Man: "Oh no! Let's go to the doctor so that my wife and my unborn child may be well taken care of! For I am a good, honest, God-fearing man who will always do the right thing!"

Doctor: Hmm, well Mrs. Woman. We've done some tests and there's a problem. You only have a 10% chance to carry to term, and only a 20% chance to live if you don't abort."

Man: "We'll take that chance! All life is precious! God gave us this child and He will see us through!"

Woman: "...umm, I'm not so sure about that. Let's do the abortion."

Doctor: "Mr. Man, do you agree?"

Man: "No!

Doctor: "Sorry, Mrs. You have to stay pregnant. I cannot operate on you without Man's consent."

*6 months later, woman and unborn child both die*


Sorry guys, we lose this one. Woman gets final say. Maybe this is something we can someday have technological solutions for. In the meantime...sometimes life isn't fair.



GavJ

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2014, 10:06:30 pm »

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The safe decision for the guy to make is to sign the paper and walk away. Whereas he might have been willing to "give it a try."
If you're on good terms with one another and want to give it a try, couldn't you just sign an agreement to share costs (and waive this right), or something? Then if you break up later, you're on the hook for 1/2 child support.

The proposed law seems like it would only really affect hostile couples and somewhat crazy people trying to take advantage, because otherwise, you could just agree to anything else. Which is sort of the idea.

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I assume it's court ordered alimony and child support. So why not simply get rid of these things?
Well you could change the way these things work, and maybe address the same issue, yes. In which case it might boil down to the same idea, fine by me.

But child support (alimony has little to do with this?) serves other purposes. Like agreeing to take care of a child and then leaving 5 years in, or divorcing or whatever. Those are things that are reasonable to put a guy (or woman) on the hook for. You made a consicous promise/commitment, and then screwed it up. Versus never wanting to make one in the first place, which is different.




As to the side conversation, I would never suggest that men have to sign off on abortions or whatever. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be some kind of restitution for having an abortion the father doesn't want. I.e. go ahead and do it, but maybe be liable to a civil suit or something.

Not sure if that leads to a happy place for society or not, haven't really thought about it very much. But I think that's what it would be, IF ANYTHING. Not having control over the abortion.
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Reelya

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2014, 10:10:22 pm »

There's a related issue. That is some activists say "ok, whatever let men opt out of fatherhood, but then they must never ever have contact with the child, even if the child seeks them out, etc etc". Sure that sounds ok, but we don't enforce that rule for mothers who adopt out their babies do we ... and they are similarly "off the hook" for any financial obligations.

All in all, the old system is really paternalistic and views women as passive recipients of aid and men as active providers of aid (or women as passive agents in sex: man as the 'doer' woman as the 'done', so whatever the outcome it's the mans responsibility). This "man active, woman passive" thing flows through a lot of societys rules, and it's plain rubbish especially in modern advanced societies.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 10:15:28 pm by Reelya »
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Frumple

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2014, 10:55:46 pm »

All in all, the old system is really paternalistic and views women as passive recipients of aid and men as active providers of aid (or women as passive agents in sex: man as the 'doer' woman as the 'done', so whatever the outcome it's the mans responsibility). This "man active, woman passive" thing flows through a lot of societys rules, and it's plain rubbish especially in modern advanced societies.
This... really kinda' confuses me. You are aware that it's whichever parent isn't the primary guardian that pays child support, right? With gender kinda' not factoring in much, if at all. Insofar as I'm aware it's been like that for... well, at least as long as I've been alive. Two or three decades or so.
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LordBucket

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2014, 12:50:24 am »

If you're on good terms with one another and want to give it a try, couldn't you just sign an agreement to share costs (and waive this right), or something? Then if you break up later, you're on the hook for 1/2 child support.

Well, sure. But if you're on good terms, then presumably no legal mediation is required at all.

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The proposed law seems like it would only really affect hostile couples and somewhat crazy people

Yes. I think that's exactly who it would be intended for.

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But child support (alimony has little to do with this?)

Yes, they're different things. You have it right.

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child support

serves other purposes. Like agreeing to take care of a child and then leaving 5 years in, or divorcing or whatever. Those are things that are reasonable to put a guy (or woman) on the hook for. You made a consicous promise/commitment, and then screwed it up. Versus never wanting to make one in the first place, which is different.

But this is kind of fuzzy territory.  It's usually women who initiate divorce, and it's usually women who get custody of children, So I think it's a mischaracterization to think of it as "man agreed to commit to taking care of the children then changed his mind and left." That's not usually how it is. I realize the proposition in the OP is an attempt to make things more equitable, but isn't it interesting that it assumes that only the man be financially liable? Why are only men on the hook?

Also, remember that adoption is a thing. If both parents give up custody, a child becomes a ward of the court. I'm not encouraging that as a good option, but I'm not convinced that it's reasonable for only one party to be held unconditionally liable for 18 years unless they sign a piece of paper within some earlier timeframe. Under threat of force. Under threat of imprisonment and wage garnishment. 18 years is a long time for circumstances to change. Some sort of statue of limitations here might be appropriate.

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doesn't mean there couldn't be some kind of restitution for having an abortion the father doesn't want. I.e. go ahead and do it, but maybe be liable to a civil suit or something.

...I guess you could go there. I'm having a difficult time coming up with a good reason why that wouldn't be...acceptable. But, I just see this while thing as a case where life isn't fair, and attempting to mandate fairness might make things worse.

For example, do you really want to provide legal and financial incentives for people to have children they don't want? What kind of life is little Billy going to have if his mother only decided to give birth to him to avoid litigation? I suppose you could suggest that in those cases, the father would receive custody by default. Even so, the mother still has to give birth. Can you imagine feeling compelled / manipulated into carrying a child for 9 months solely to avoid civil penalty payments you can't afford?

Jelle

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2014, 02:17:44 am »

Having it so a father can opt out of parenthood is a step in the right direction to be sure, but still one to little to achieve fairness in my opinion.

The way I see it the best compromise is for a child to be born only when there is mutual agreement from both parties, or in other words for both the mother and the father to have the same rights to have their child aborted. Sure the woman is the one carrying the child, but when you're talking about early stages of pregnancy forcing a man's child to be born against his wishes to me seems to far outweigh the discomfort of a rather minor procedure. Thus while the situation would slightly favor men, overall it would be more fair. Of course a shift in favor of men even if it's an overall better compromise is unthinkable in todays society so it would never happen.

The reverse situation where men would gain the same right as women to decide to have the child is another matter entirely. While there would be equal rights, forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy is on a completely different scale than having a child aborted in the early stages. That would be monstrous and definately worse than the status quo.

In an ideal world where relieving the mother of carrying the child is technologically practical the latter would be preferable, in the meanwhile the former seems most fair to me. Not that I think either is likely to happen as it disempowers women, the idea alone would result in outrage.
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Reelya

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Re: Abortion father opt-out rule
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2014, 02:45:39 am »

All in all, the old system is really paternalistic and views women as passive recipients of aid and men as active providers of aid (or women as passive agents in sex: man as the 'doer' woman as the 'done', so whatever the outcome it's the mans responsibility). This "man active, woman passive" thing flows through a lot of societys rules, and it's plain rubbish especially in modern advanced societies.
This... really kinda' confuses me. You are aware that it's whichever parent isn't the primary guardian that pays child support, right? With gender kinda' not factoring in much, if at all. Insofar as I'm aware it's been like that for... well, at least as long as I've been alive. Two or three decades or so.

The father lacks the power to force a woman to become a mother and pay for him to raise a child. That's a difference that child support laws don't take into account. There's really no situation where a man can say "we had sex, woman, so now you have to pay me a hefty fee for 18 years because I decided to have a baby - but you're not invited."

What I'm talking about as paternalism is this notion that a man is responsible for a woman's decisions: it kind of infantilizes women.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 02:51:06 am by Reelya »
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