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[Torrenal]

Traps are worthy or worthless?

I recall hearing tell in early  40.01 testing that traps were worthless.
I even recall experiencing something similar: A small group of goblins challened with 2 stone traps, 3 'filled to the teeth' wooden corkscrew traps, 10 corkscrews each, and 3 cage traps.  The first goblin got past everything to land in a cage with just a single blow from a stone that hit it. 

More recently, I've turned back an undead siege with traps.  There were cage traps in the mix this time also, but none of the undead 'survived' long enough to reach them.
Typical combat logs are:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Elf Maceman Corpse blocks The spinning {*enormous apple wood corkscrew*} with the ({bronze shield})!
The {ðenormous sand pear wood corkscrewð} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the left upper leg, tearing the muscle through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The {enormous birchen corkscrew} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the left upper leg, tearing the muscle through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The {enormous pecan wood corkscrew} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the right lower arm, tearing the muscle through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The {*enormous pecan wood corkscrew*} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the neck, tearing the muscle and bruising the upper spine's bone through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The Elf Maceman Corpse blocks The spinning {ðenormous sand pear wood corkscrewð} with the ({bronze shield})!

And for the more high-tech traps (read: Made of metal...):
(steel weapon trap)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Elf Maceman Corpse blocks The spinning *large, serrated steel disc* with the ({bronze shield})!
The Elf Maceman Corpse loses hold of the ({giant narwhal leather right mitten}).
The Elf Maceman Corpse loses hold of the ({llama wool right glove}).
The Elf Maceman Corpse loses hold of the ({bronze shield}).
The *large, serrated steel disc* strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the right lower arm and the severed part sails off in an arc!
The *large, serrated steel disc* strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the upper body, tearing apart the muscle and shattering the right true ribs through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
A tendon in the right true ribs has been torn!
The Elf Maceman Corpse loses hold of the ({narwhal leather shoe}).
The Elf Maceman Corpse loses hold of the ({rope reed fiber sock}).
The *large, serrated steel disc* strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the right lower leg and the severed part sails off in an arc!
The *large, serrated steel disc* strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the upper body, tearing apart the muscle and tearing apart the heart through the ({sheep wool cloak})!

(spikes)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The {*menacing steel spike*} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the upper body, tearing the muscle and tearing the right lung through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The {-menacing steel spike-} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the right upper arm, fracturing the bone through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
A motor nerve has been severed and a tendon has been torn!
The {-menacing steel spike-} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the lower body, tearing the muscle and tearing the pancreas through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The {*menacing steel spike*} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the upper body, tearing the muscle and tearing the heart through the ({sheep wool cloak})!
The {menacing steel spike} strikes The Elf Maceman Corpse in the head, tearing the muscle and fracturing the skull through the ({rope reed fiber hood})!
A tendon in the skull has been torn!

Is it that Traps got fixed and I never noticed?  Or that undead are suckers for a Cuisinart, or have I improbably stumbled on a working trap defense?
//Torrrenal

[clownwolf]

I have only used traps on goblins.

On this version, stone traps usually hit 1 out of 6 times, and completely crush the body part 9/10 times (leaving them unconscious, even with just a crushed hand).

Most metal traps that hit for 3x (disk, spiked balls) are always complete kills if you load 10 of them.

Wooden weapon traps are useful for the semi-megabeasts because they are unarmored. A Giant died in 2 weapon traps filled with 10 wooden spiked balls each. Traps never made it past tearing/bruising the muscles, but it hit his guts and head enough. I haven't tried wooden traps on goblins yet, so I don't know if it can kill them as well.

I doubt your wooden traps actually did damage to the undead though, are they weakened by bruises?

[Dunamisdeos]

Spiked balls are different. They do blunt damage, and anything heavy works for those.

I've continued using spinning blade traps, but I haven't had a chance to test them in a real live siege yet. I can say that every semi/mega beast that walked over the traps got hit by them, no problem. I was using serrated iron discs, 3 to a trap.

Cage traps have been 100% effective for me as well.

[Torrenal]

Periodically, the wood traps severd bits.
Searching the gamelog...

The {enormous birchen corkscrew} strikes The Elf Swordsman Corpse in the right hand and the severed part sails off in an arc!
The {ðenormous sand pear wood corkscrewð} strikes The Elf Hammerman Corpse in the upper body, tearing the muscle and shattering the left true ribs through the ({rope reed fiber cloak})!
The {*enormous pecan wood corkscrew*} strikes The Elf Hammerman Corpse in the lower body and it is mostly cut away from the rest of the torso!

Fairly typical 'critical hits' I'd say.  Not guaranteed out of every walk over a weapon trap filled with 10 wood corkscrews, but I think I was getting them at least 10% of the time undead stepped on these traps.

Only thing other than undead I've had face the traps was a Giant.   Never made it past my first row of stone traps, so I really only have experience vs undead.
//Torrenal

[Deboche]

Ive used cage traps just like in the previous version, they catch everything except kobolds and big mean creatures

I put up 3 weapon traps on my bridge, each with 10 glass serrated discs and barely any enemies get past those

Stone traps are only good in 1 tile wide corridors I think. I don't use them anymore but all they're good for is stopping those early goblin snatchers that don't seem to come anymore anyway

[vjek]

Ok, so I finally had time to test this conclusively.

In 40.08, I've found the following to be true, for enormous iron corkscrews, one corkscrew per weapon trap:

with ≡ or ☼ quality trap components, and no-quality mechanisms:
Goblins walk right through them.

with ≡ or ☼ quality mechanisms, and no-quality trap components:
Goblins are killed, regularly.

Short version, if you rely on weapon traps, your mechanic dwarf is more valuable than your weaponsmith.

[Tacomagic]

Also of note: forcing dodges still appears to be relatively effective; though it seems to happen far less than it used to.  I've had decent luck forcing invaders over traps filled with wooden weapons or trap components in hopes of making them dodge into nearby pits.

Granted, you need to make sure the pit is secure against climbing and jumping, but that's not a big deal.  Smooth walls, 2 z-levels, and a floor overhanging the perimeter is all you really need.

Filling that pit with repeating spike traps is also still rather effective.

[int_ua]

Short version, if you rely on weapon traps, your mechanic dwarf is more valuable than your weaponsmith.

Isn't it logical and realistic, and even obvious?
How would sharpness of a knife affect trap triggering?

I rarely use weapon traps, but trap cages are my main defence and pretty effective since I haven't seen anyone escaping a cage yet. Just don't put them inside, where your sleepy dwarves wander.

The main question for me is how exactly good are artifact mechanisms? If you need a save with one, here you go: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9416

[Dunamisdeos]

Short version, if you rely on weapon traps, your mechanic dwarf is more valuable than your weaponsmith.

Isn't it logical and realistic, and even obvious?
How would sharpness of a knife affect trap triggering?

I rarely use weapon traps, but trap cages are my main defence and pretty effective since I haven't seen anyone escaping a cage yet. Just don't put them inside, where your sleepy dwarves wander.

The main question for me is how exactly good are artifact mechanisms? If you need a save with one, here you go: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9416

Artifact mechanisms are indestructible regardless of their material. Useful for lots of things!

[Torrenal]

Artifact mechanisms are indestructible regardless of their material. Useful for lots of things!

But...

in traps, are artifact mechanisms more effective than masterwork mechanisms?  And if so, in what way and by how much?

TBH, all my traps have masterwork mechanisms in them, EXCEPT for my two artifact mechanisms both loaded out with some of my top steel serrated discs....

Lets just say that there was lots of bits being picked up post-siege.  Some of it by the artifact traps which marked the furthest advance of the siege, and more by the wood traps that lead my defense.

//Torrenal

[smjjames]

Actually, I believe traps with artifact mechanisms never jam.

[khearn]

I wouldn't waste an artifact mechanism in a trap. I'd build a lever out of it in a high traffic area, like my dining room. Lots of dwarves will see it and get happy thoughts. Since masterwork traps are already pretty close to 100%, would an artifact trap really be noticeably better? If your defenses are such that the difference between one trap being artifact rather than masterwork will make the difference, just add another row of masterwork traps.

I think an extra happy thought for every dwarf in the fort is worth more.

   Keith

[smjjames]

For a standard trap hall, yeah it would be best to just use masterwork, but if theres some part of the trap complex that you really REALLY REALLY don't want to jam, ever, and you have a surplus of artifact mechanisms, then yes.

They can also be used together with artifact querns and floodgates to make an undestroyable and unknockdownable barrier or even a lure.

Regarding stone traps, they are one shot deals and don't reload themselves, plus you'll end up with lots of boulders cluttering the trap zone. They're useful in the very early stage when your weapons industry hasn't gotten started yet and you need to get traps down fast. Replace them with weapon traps as soon as you are able to.

[Dunamisdeos]

For a standard trap hall, yeah it would be best to just use masterwork, but if theres some part of the trap complex that you really REALLY REALLY don't want to jam, ever, and you have a surplus of artifact mechanisms, then yes.

They can also be used together with artifact querns and floodgates to make an undestroyable and unknockdownable barrier or even a lure.

Regarding stone traps, they are one shot deals and don't reload themselves, plus you'll end up with lots of boulders cluttering the trap zone. They're useful in the very early stage when your weapons industry hasn't gotten started yet and you need to get traps down fast. Replace them with weapon traps as soon as you are able to.

You can just use a drawbridge for an impassable barrier. Also, if that really results in an uncloggable trap, then that is incredibly useful. You could literally have it be the only trap and get along pretty good.

[Bumber]

Also, if that really results in an uncloggable trap, then that is incredibly useful. You could literally have it be the only trap and get along pretty good.

Until they start jumping over it.

Or maybe it's just that they run past too quickly, which you could solve with proper layout.