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Author Topic: Why don't dwarves use spears?  (Read 10395 times)

miauw62

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2014, 06:34:09 am »

if they were a real thing as seen in fantasy, they would have axes :P
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Melting Sky

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2014, 08:43:01 am »

A hammer I can see making sense since Dwarves are craftsmen and would be already very comfortable with such a tool/weapon. What dwarf worth their salt would go through life without owning a hammer? I could see them using picks militarily as well since it similarly already a part of their daily lives and culture. Humanity's love of edged weapons began with cutting tools. Many weapon's owe their early lineage to reimplemented tools.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 08:46:23 am by Melting Sky »
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Ogdibus

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2014, 02:32:49 pm »

I probably should have clarified that the spear and other weapon wouldn't normally be used at the same time, but rather with a shield, unless plate armor was worn.

This link, in the third paragraph sums up the sort of armament I would expect.  This isn't the source that I used to arrive at that conclusion.  I sort of pieced it together from various historical articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age_arms_and_armour


I actually like both styles, but the more historic style is much more rare right now, and the exaggerated style is overused.
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ComatosePhoenix

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2014, 05:58:01 pm »

I am going to say that spears Are hardly ever shown in media, there not just missing from dwarven arsenals. Swords, axes ect. are just more popular. Off the top of my head, I can only think of 300 for a film where spears saw any decent use, and that was based on truth. By the same token lances are really missing in fantasy and games. Heck, compare Fire emblem critical hits, Spears users don't get anything cool compared to everyone else.
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RedSeven

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2014, 11:13:05 pm »

A phalanx of spears would beat anything that attacks it from the front in melee, so it would be nearly unbeatable in a tunnel where it can't be flanked unless it is something like a megabeast crashing into the formation.
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Ogdibus

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2014, 11:51:11 pm »

The francisca isn't a bad weapon for dealing with a phalanx.  Crossbows are even better, if you're not in a tight space.
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Agent_Irons

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2014, 11:43:07 am »

A phalanx of spears would beat anything that attacks it from the front in melee, so it would be nearly unbeatable in a tunnel where it can't be flanked unless it is something like a megabeast crashing into the formation.
It would beat any army of humanoids with weapons that attack it from the front, which is basically zero percent of all dwarven threats. It would be less good against very heavily armored shell beasts, or anything with a gas or spray. No room to dodge in a packed hallway. Amethyst men aren't going to go down easily to massed spears.

Dwarven warfare is sudden, in the dark, outnumbered, and far from help(usually). They often lose their minds in combat, so ordered formations is a little tricky to pull off. They favor strength, skill(/blind luck), and agility over order and morale. They're like an army of tiny armored Bruce Lees, jumping around and bouncing off walls and charging foes much larger than themselves.
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chevil

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2014, 02:31:15 pm »

A phalanx of spears would beat anything that attacks it from the front in melee, so it would be nearly unbeatable in a tunnel where it can't be flanked unless it is something like a megabeast crashing into the formation.
It would beat any army of humanoids with weapons that attack it from the front, which is basically zero percent of all dwarven threats. It would be less good against very heavily armored shell beasts, or anything with a gas or spray. No room to dodge in a packed hallway. Amethyst men aren't going to go down easily to massed spears.

Dwarven warfare is sudden, in the dark, outnumbered, and far from help(usually). They often lose their minds in combat, so ordered formations is a little tricky to pull off. They favor strength, skill(/blind luck), and agility over order and morale. They're like an army of tiny armored Bruce Lees, jumping around and bouncing off walls and charging foes much larger than themselves.
A dwarf in a martial trance is kinda kungfu. Dodging everything thrown at him and counterattacking with inhuman accuracy.

If I could mod in super jumping then you could even call it wirefu.
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pisskop

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2014, 02:44:05 pm »

In game, spears are great weapons, not only my preferred adventurer weapon (actually my favorite (not most effective) weapons if the halberd) but a great compliment to an early fort.  A new spearman can chop off limbs and tear nerves with relative ease compared to a swordsman or a hammerman, especially through armor.  Actually, hammers are terrible weapons in the hands of the untrained.
In advanced forts, I still keep them around.  They are great for killing things that can feel pain and do suffer heavily from lost limbs.

Without the factor of weapon range (i.e. a dwarf can punch as far as a human with a glaive can stab) I find it less useful, but as has been noted elsewhere dwarves don't necessarily need the range.  I think dwarves would certainly make use of a short thrusting spear in their tunnels.

---

Oh, the reason I think, in part, that dwarves dont use phalanx has to do with the idea that they are little macho miners.  They do have a pseudo-viking aura about them, and they dont have much in the way of imperial desires.  They dont need a highly regimented military because they fight in smaller groups.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 02:47:51 pm by pisskop »
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smjjames

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 04:42:22 pm »

Even if they fight in smaller groups, the phalanx formation would still be useful in some situations.
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Splint

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2014, 05:23:54 pm »

It would, but that's not really the point, and several people have already said why: Spears just don't spring to mind when people think "dwarf" for a variety of reasons (physical might, stature, cultural perception based on books and games, etc.) Hence the vast majority of depictions are with hammers, axes (or hammeraxes!) and sometimes swords. It isn't that they wouldn't make heavy use of them (in fact as someone else said they'd likely make very extensive use of them in standing armies,) it's just that we don't typically imagine spears when we think of dwarves.

We think things that lop off limbs or turn people and other entities into slightly crunchy lump-filled piles of red mush with a vaguely humanoid shape.

King Mir

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2014, 08:25:44 pm »

The francisca isn't a bad weapon for dealing with a phalanx.  Crossbows are even better, if you're not in a tight space.
Yep, good choice! great for disrupting formations.

A phalanx of spears would beat anything that attacks it from the front in melee, so it would be nearly unbeatable in a tunnel where it can't be flanked unless it is something like a megabeast crashing into the formation.
It'd be beat by double handed swords. Such a swordsman could knock the mass of spears out of the way as he advanced into the formation of spears or pikes. And unlike the spear, you'd have a nice bladed edge for close combat.

Greek fire would do reasonably well too.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:36:52 pm by King Mir »
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Baffler

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2014, 11:07:30 pm »

One of the dwarfiest weapons in existence, IMO, is the mighty falx. I always mod them in.
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Scruiser

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 08:24:11 am »

   Does OP refer to standard fantasy, or Dwarf Fortress in particular?  Generic high fantasy draws heavily from Lord of the Rings, and Gimili always used his ax, thus modern generic high fantasy always have dwarfs with axes.  High fantasy writers don't always seem to try to maximize internal consistency or logic, and thus I don't knoe of any that have noted the value of a phalanx inside of a tunnel.
   In my forts I assign a mix of weapons to cover all the cases: hammers for breaking bones and crippling, axes for removing limbs, sword for stabbing and hacking, and spears for penetrating deeply in large creatures.  As mentioned in another post, right now, the game doesn't have a REACH parameter/tag for weapons, so the spear/pike has no special combat value other than its ability to penetrate deeply.  When the game does have a [REACH:min reach:max reach] token for weapons, that will be a major incentive using spears and it will allow for phalanxes and such.  The other characteristic is the hybrid materials as someone else said.  When this is in, it will mean that spears cost  as much metal as a knife, making them excellently cost-efficient weapons.
   I personally see a halberd with a hook on one side being the best tunnel weapon.  Stick it forward to stop advances, use it as an ax up close, use the hook to trip and pull in enemies.
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Mlamlah

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 09:45:29 pm »

I imagine that against humanoid opponents of any kind any kind of strong shieldwall by heavily armored dwarves would be deeply effective in tunnels. Pike as well, might prove more effective than smaller weapons against large monstrosities of the deep, as it's more likely to reach the vitals of such creatures.
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