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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 368444 times)

Jalak

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1020 on: October 27, 2014, 09:15:57 pm »

I remember it being mentioned somewhere that the cost was going to be something around $20. Granted, this was before the entire kickstarter exploded, so it might be more. Cheaper then mainstream games, probably, at least.
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1021 on: October 27, 2014, 09:35:11 pm »

Were TWS still running with the original graphics, I'd say $15 at most to get over what I like to think of as the "Dominions" effect. (i.e., a game that is far deeper and more satisfying than its graphics would imply.)

With better graphics though, I think the bar on it could go up.
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Rutee

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1022 on: October 28, 2014, 12:49:39 am »

When you say 'before the beta', re upgrading my rewards, you mean it, right?  Since right now I probably should wait on doing so, so I'm going to.  Beta's not for a while, is part of why I'm asking (I'm not planning on upgrading at the last second or some shit, just... not this instant)
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rylen

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1023 on: October 28, 2014, 09:45:25 pm »

While waiting, I've set down my ideas for an agent. I present the first draft of ... The Physician

The Physician is a false-front agent who gains influence by removing problems. But who is willing to create the harms that let him be a hero.

"He enjoys, perhaps too much, life and death red in his hands."

Inspiration: Frank Burns from the book M*A*S*H. Unlike the TV character, he is competent surgeon who thinks the war is great. He is skilled at open heart massage, the way to save someone whose heart stopped in the days before defibrillators. And, the narrator believes, willing allow his patients to drift into danger so he can dramatically rescue them.

Stats: Don't know. Something like the Peddler most likely. Decent but not great for Infiltration and Command. Definitely not combat oriented.

Scheme: Again, I don't know how these work. Either something emphasizing his skills in medicine or how he can use those skills to gain people trust. I'm partial to The Great Healer where, once he gains the trust of several nations, even more start trusting him because they've heard of the good he does.

Interactions:
-With Heroes: If he approaches a wounded Hero he gains extremely low level Infiltration (medical history) and gets the following choices:
1)  Trust in my skills. (Wound's severity is reduced. Speed of damage healing increased for a bit. Timer is started to keep this event from firing constantly (see Quests.) Agent gets influence with Hero's groups and Profile improved. No clue is generated.)
2) I'll see what I can do. (Speed of damage healing increased and timer started. Possibly minor influence and Profile improvements, but this isn't something that really gets the Hero bragging about the Agent. Extremely difficult clue left since he isn't doing his best work.)
3) You're lucky we met in time. (Wound's severity is increased leading to possible amputations or death. Possible minor influence and Profile improvements. Leave difficult clue, but see Investigate quest below.)
4) Old one specific option. A plague god could make the hero a disease carrier. A mind one may do Manchurian Candidate programming. A war god could plant the seeds of berserker rage.

This is the core of what he does: move damage around. He gains trust by helping weaker heroes with minor problems and then spends it to cripple the key opposition.

-With armies: May attach himself to an army causing it to suffer fewer casualties in fighting. Influence with the controlling nation goes up. With the Great Healer scheme, may even improve influence with the opposing nation, since the Agent obviously wants to help everyone.

Again, moving damage around. This time making an army more durable than it appears, wearing down the other. Good for escalating conflict between nations by drawing out a war. Also useful when your armies start marching.

-With the map: Does various ill health, miasma, and poisoning actions more quickly and with harder to detect clues than other agents.

He also can remove these conditions himself, gaining influence, lowering Profile, and disguising or eliminating any clues left behind. Yes, this means he can poison a village and then swoop in and save it.

Note, there are lines he cannot safely cross. Once someone massacres an orphanage, it doesn't matter how many soup kitchens they organize.

I suspect this interaction will see heavy use. He will gain trust by helping out. Then, since the guy who knows how to cure a disease is obviously an expert in lots of other stuff, will bend ears with his advice.

Quests: His recruitment causes two specific quests.

First) Seek aid from The Physician.
-Trigger: Hero is at least moderately wounded (no flesh wounds), is within N POIs, The Physician is respected by the Hero, and The Physician has a low profile (Hero has heard the man will be able to help.)
OR
-Trigger B: as above, but Hero must be severely wounded and The Physician has no higher than a medium profile but the Hero has no specific anti-Physician knowledge. (Perhaps the things they say are just rumors.)
-Behavior: Hero moves towards Physician and triggers the Hero Interaction (see above).

Second) Investigate The Physician
-Trigger: Hero* has a friend who dies or retires shortly after treatment by The Physician. (Ideally it might become available even if The Physician isn't the cause. Health is mysterious.) If the number of victims is low, this should be a low probability choice; but it should rise with their numbers.
-Behavior: Hero seeks places Physician did things. The clue from Physician-Hero Interaction Choice 3 should be more obvious.
-Success: Hero realizes The Physician is trouble. Starts spreading word. May start chasing to attack. Places that are told may decrease his influence. Or react hostilely to the accuser.
-Failure: Perhaps an exoneration counter. The more times someone fails this quest, the harder it gets.

*for genre reasons, preferably a low insight type. The High insight types tend to understand how difficult medicine is and trust other highly skilled individuals. Affinity fraud strikes again.
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Jalak

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1024 on: October 28, 2014, 10:36:38 pm »

I, for one, approve of this new agent.
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Cheeetar

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1025 on: October 28, 2014, 10:39:29 pm »

I really like the agent you designed, Rylen. The only problem I can see is that he might be too powerful if treated properly.
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wer6

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1026 on: October 29, 2014, 06:54:04 am »

Simple, if the Physician is too "Prominent" then of course both lynch mobs and Alchemists following in behind to treat, and general hate towards him, but if he moves to another continent...
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1027 on: October 29, 2014, 10:15:47 am »

When you say 'before the beta', re upgrading my rewards, you mean it, right?  Since right now I probably should wait on doing so, so I'm going to.  Beta's not for a while, is part of why I'm asking (I'm not planning on upgrading at the last second or some shit, just... not this instant)

Yep, up until the start of the beta.  We'll send out prominent reminders before we end the ability to contribute.

Oh man I love the Physician, we have some similar interactions with wounds but nothing this specialized. 

I really like the agent you designed, Rylen. The only problem I can see is that he might be too powerful if treated properly.

You can balance this by adjusting the increase to profile for his actions, the Peddler has a similar problem where his base ability to hand over corrupted items is incredibly powerful if it didn't have a downside.  So handing out poisoned potions may be a wonderful way to weaken your foes, but the moment that someone drinks it the peddler becomes a source of suspicion, which is damning for someone who relies on being innocuous (much like the physician).

List should be finalized tomorrow night (says Amazon Payments), we'll probably start rolling people into the forums Friday morning - we'll be doing it in phases to make sure people are successfully getting in so you may not receive your invite until later in the weekend. 

We have a lot of samples for review on the forum, with two in particular really looking good.  We do NOT yet have an example of the "cartography slices" - since it is a style not often used it's been more difficult to find people to produce a quality sample.  We've been leaning heavily towards keeping the map 2D as we don't like the generic look of 3D maps plus it comes with overhead both in display and up-front development time, but we do have some 3D samples as well.
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Zangi

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1028 on: October 29, 2014, 11:39:25 am »

Shift blame:  "Sorry, this is from a new supplier of mine, guess I won't be buying their stuff anymore, my apologies, here is a refund and a complementary item."
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Xgamer4

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1029 on: October 29, 2014, 01:50:19 pm »

I'm ridiculously excited for this. I can't wait.

A few quick modding questions that I don't remember being answered:

1) Is it possible to have a quest chain that results in a new POI?

2) Are guilds/cults/etc just abstract political entities you can influence, or can heroes and/or the elite units have an affiliate to one of them? Then if so, can that affiliation give abilities to the hero?
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Zoston

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1030 on: October 29, 2014, 03:46:38 pm »

I'm more excited for this game than I've been in a long time! I just managed to get to the tail end of the kickstarter, but I've been eating up every scrap of info I could get my hands on.

The main question I still have is about how complex we can mod governments to be? Can we add in multiple layers of government? I'd like to try my hand at making a scenario centred around a Byzantinesque Empire, where at the top you'd have the Emperor, the Military, and the Bureaucracy vying for power (you would have a large amount of possible strategies, try and corrupt the bureaucracy and stage a civil coup, or perhaps just turn the high general into a coward thus hamstringing the Empire's military.), while below governors are running their territories almost like they were independent countries (a big part of the balance would be that if you corrupt the top, individual governors can counter the effects within their own territory, while if you corrupt individual governors you run the risk of the higher government taking notice and replacing them).

Would modding in such internal politics be possible? Or are you relatively limited to unified government?

Also, if you can create somewhat more complicated governments, can you dynamically lower or raise the influence of individual actors within it? For example, say you mod a new government that is a confederacy of city-states, with a ruling council made up by a delegate of each city. Could you mod it so player and AI actions could say raise one city-states 'voting power' in government decisions, at the expense of another of course. Could you mod it where you could, for example, take over an independent city, apply for membership to the confederacy, and then increase your influence till your city becomes the de-facto sole ruler (probably requiring winning civil wars in the process).
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1031 on: October 29, 2014, 05:55:41 pm »

I'm ridiculously excited for this. I can't wait.

A few quick modding questions that I don't remember being answered:

1) Is it possible to have a quest chain that results in a new POI?

2) Are guilds/cults/etc just abstract political entities you can influence, or can heroes and/or the elite units have an affiliate to one of them? Then if so, can that affiliation give abilities to the hero?

1) yes but the POI has to be defined in the Scenario already - you can't set it up at runtime you can just "activate/deactivate" an existing POI (so start with a deactivated one and then set it to active) - you usually want to trigger an event at the same time "Island Rises from the Sea, Secret Pass Discovered" etc that will give the AI something to react to

2) Heroes learn their advanced abilities from Guild/Order membership, so it can be very important to the lategame

I'm more excited for this game than I've been in a long time! I just managed to get to the tail end of the kickstarter, but I've been eating up every scrap of info I could get my hands on.

The main question I still have is about how complex we can mod governments to be? Can we add in multiple layers of government? I'd like to try my hand at making a scenario centred around a Byzantinesque Empire, where at the top you'd have the Emperor, the Military, and the Bureaucracy vying for power (you would have a large amount of possible strategies, try and corrupt the bureaucracy and stage a civil coup, or perhaps just turn the high general into a coward thus hamstringing the Empire's military.), while below governors are running their territories almost like they were independent countries (a big part of the balance would be that if you corrupt the top, individual governors can counter the effects within their own territory, while if you corrupt individual governors you run the risk of the higher government taking notice and replacing them).

Would modding in such internal politics be possible? Or are you relatively limited to unified government?

Also, if you can create somewhat more complicated governments, can you dynamically lower or raise the influence of individual actors within it? For example, say you mod a new government that is a confederacy of city-states, with a ruling council made up by a delegate of each city. Could you mod it so player and AI actions could say raise one city-states 'voting power' in government decisions, at the expense of another of course. Could you mod it where you could, for example, take over an independent city, apply for membership to the confederacy, and then increase your influence till your city becomes the de-facto sole ruler (probably requiring winning civil wars in the process).

Woooooooooooo WELL internal politics is a tricky thing.  You CAN mod it but that's all through custom code - so if you can handle some C# you can pull in all our dlls and then write it up, but it will doubtless need some debugging to go around it, and you'll have to adjust some AI routines as well to really do justice to it, as well as handle all the custom events for a new government.  Definitely a lot of work.

You could reproduce it to some extent with one of two existing mechanisms. 

1) The Feudal Kingdoms are made up of Baronies that are all part of the same Kingdom but have their own AI Entity (Barons) as well as their own courts, agendas, and drives.  They can split apart, declare war on one another, or be asborbed by rival baronies.

2) Empire -> Province -> Colony relationships.  Each of these are distinct countries, but the Provinces and Colonies are linked with the Imperial Country that is their ruler - it creates a lot of complex dynamics and tension between them but allows the Empire to exert greater influence on their provinces/colonies depending on how centralized their command structure is.

You could also just simulate it with some variables and a ton of custom events, which would really give you a strong sense of theme but would lower variance.

EDIT:  Realized I didn't answer the second part

Yes you absolutely can raise the importance of certain elements in the political scheme of things, propping up the person who wants the same things you want (usually war) is a pretty standard tactic.  You can raise or lower the influence of guilds, orders, kings, advisors, etc - and in republics you can also effect how powerful each city/village is.  If a certain city begins to dominate the republic they may very well change the government, though this requires an individual to make the drastic decision.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 06:12:31 pm by KingDinosaurGames »
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Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1032 on: October 29, 2014, 07:27:41 pm »

Seems like having your Great Old One almost awakened or even awakened will pretty definitively bring about the victory of the game.

I praise the game for having a system to prevent the sort of "last base" scenario so many games of this type often game without sacrificing the large and expansive world.

If this game was/is multiplayer I can only imagine the chaos as multiple eldergods start plunging the world into chaos.
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1033 on: October 29, 2014, 09:20:29 pm »

Seems like having your Great Old One almost awakened or even awakened will pretty definitively bring about the victory of the game.

I praise the game for having a system to prevent the sort of "last base" scenario so many games of this type often game without sacrificing the large and expansive world.

If this game was/is multiplayer I can only imagine the chaos as multiple eldergods start plunging the world into chaos.

It depends on the Old One, and even for the more powerful ones it will bring about the End but not necessarily your victory - your impending rise will draw out all those who are aware of your return and what resources they can muster to put a stop to it.
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lijacote

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1034 on: October 30, 2014, 08:19:19 am »

Would it be possible to have the guildmaster give the heroes powerful abilities that come with grave costs, like the sword that the Peddler leaves behind? I could easily imagine a guild or group of mages being enticed with UNLIMITED POWER only to burn out in its corrupting power.
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To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven.
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