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Author Topic: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.  (Read 207205 times)

martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #375 on: September 14, 2014, 04:15:23 pm »

I don't think so. i think they are very understandable through reading the Quran and knowing the historic means of propagating it.

With the Qu'ran being generally regarded by muslims, indeed, as being literal, how do you explain that the majority of muslims around the world are not joining any Jihad, but conforming to non-expansionism and peaceful co-existance (albeit it based on tolerance instead of acceptance)?
I mean sure, IS, and other jalalala-I-keel-U groups are a clear threat, but on the other hand, they are just a very small percentage of a huge global muslim population.
The underlying causes for current Jihads cannot be as simple as you put it, "they read the Qu'ran and learned from earlier Jihads". There must be other factors involved in triggering those Jihadists.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #376 on: September 14, 2014, 04:31:38 pm »

I also can't understand the reason or goal of those comparisons. how accepting that christians nutcases exists excuse or negate my claims that islam is a violent religion?

I don't disagree with most of your post, but I will help out on this point.

They see you constantly pointing to cases of Islamists doing crazy violent stuff as evidence that the whole religion is violent.
So they respond by pointing to cases of Christians doing crazy violent stuff, and wonder if you see it as equal evidence that the whole Christian religion is violent.
If you don't, they want you to explain why the evidence doesn't apply equally in both cases.  The point is that judging the whole by the minority of fundamentalists isn't a valid method, unless applied equally and universally.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #377 on: September 14, 2014, 08:12:40 pm »

Worth noting that the Qur'an isn't the only text in Islam, as much (or even most) of the religion's practices are actually sourced from various hadiths. Hadiths are written works attached to different sects of Islam, written after Muhammad's death, that were mostly oral records of his life, lifestyle, sayings, etc. One of the results of this is that, since the guy lived in the 600s, a lot of the stuff in there is typical of life for Bedouins in the 600s.  It's the basis of a lot of the ritual and social traditions, as well as Shariah law. Many people also don't realize that Islam has such a huge body of theological works that were developed later, beyond the hadiths or Qur'an, much like Catholicism.

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Neonivek

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #378 on: September 15, 2014, 12:02:43 am »

Yeah while I won't say the Middle-east would have been all Peachy if people left it alone... It would have done a LOT better had people not carved it up like a prize turkey and then proceeded to create states for no reason then guilt ignoring the entire political situation set there.

As for "Why is it a religious thing" the best way I like to put it is: People will divide themselves anyway you go for it.

Quote
They see you constantly pointing to cases of Islamists doing crazy violent stuff as evidence that the whole religion is violent.
So they respond by pointing to cases of Christians doing crazy violent stuff, and wonder if you see it as equal evidence that the whole Christian religion is violent.

Usually you just get people who will just say that Religion itself is the cause of all problems and all wars and without religion the world would have been a much better place.

Which I disagree with not because I believe religion is this big force of good in the world... but because I think the reasons for war run deeper then the petty excuses people come up with, and it isn't like Atheists are the most peaceful pacifistic saints you ever saw (Hello China).

Or rather... ISIS could base their theology on a TV repair manual and they would still find the wording to do what they do.

Focusing on Religion as the cause of the problem is only exacerbating the issue by essentially lumping all Muslims in with them because "Any one of them could be a terrorist".

---

I guess instead of turning this into a debate about religion I should instead say this.

I am honestly scared we might see a resurgence of anti-Muslimism going by just this thread... I really don't want another situation...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 12:09:09 am by Neonivek »
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #379 on: September 15, 2014, 12:10:36 am »

Which I disagree with not because I believe religion is this big force of good in the world... but because I think the reasons for war run deeper then the petty excuses people come up with, and it isn't like Atheists are the most peaceful pacifistic saints you ever saw (Hello China).

Totally agree.  I have a vaguely negative outlook on religion in general, and I believe that religion is often used to influence good people into doing bad things.

But I also think it's incredibly silly for a non-religious person to criticize religion as if it isn't a human construct, meaning that it's built upon human motivations that precede the influence of religion.  Without it, those motivations would still be there to manifest in other ways.
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martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #380 on: September 15, 2014, 04:36:51 am »

My wise old grandma always said "if there were no religion, people would just find another excuse to bash each others skulls in"
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Sheb

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #381 on: September 15, 2014, 08:00:16 am »

Well, religion do tends to make thing worse, because it's a very powerful motivation. I'm sure one of the reasons that Libya is less bloody than Iraq is that the fracture lines are tribal rather than sectarians.
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Zangi

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #382 on: September 15, 2014, 09:48:11 am »

Well, religion do tends to make thing worse, because it's a very powerful motivation. I'm sure one of the reasons that Libya is less bloody than Iraq is that the fracture lines are tribal rather than sectarians.
That means less foreign fighters coming in too...
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da_nang

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #383 on: September 15, 2014, 10:53:45 am »

My wise old grandma always said "if there were no religion, people would just find another excuse to bash each others skulls in"
That may be true, but at the same time there's one less excuse to use.
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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #384 on: September 15, 2014, 11:26:43 am »

Still great order: less foreign fighters, less foreign money, and it's harder to justify atrocity without some kind of higher ideal, be it religion, ideology or MLP:FiM.
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Helgoland

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #385 on: September 15, 2014, 12:11:40 pm »

Non-Muslim example: Northern Ireland, and all the weapons that were shipped to the IRA from American sympathizers.

PTW, by the way.
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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #386 on: September 19, 2014, 01:56:58 am »

czechia sending weapons to kurds using canadian transports

src: newspaper
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QuakeIV

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #387 on: September 19, 2014, 02:30:54 am »

Humans are great at making excuses, its not like they wouldn't think of something.
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martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #388 on: September 24, 2014, 08:18:12 am »

I find it funny that in Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive cars, but in the United Arab Emirates, women are allowed to pilot fighter jets.
Two countries so close, yet worlds apart.

https://twitter.com/EjmAlrai/status/514753645020471296/photo/1
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

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