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[cephalo]

So I was trying to find out why my dying dwarf civ had a goblin queen with a proper dwarf name, assuming she was the descendant of some conquered goblin population in history. What I had found though, is that from the beginning of time, there had always been goblins deciding to live in dwarven settlements, and these goblins are both the first of their kind and also are born with proper dwarf names.

Bug or feature?

[Loam]

The goblin entity has [TOLERATES_SITE:CAVE_DETAILED], which means that they will sometimes move voluntarily from their parent civ to a Dwarven civ, and their subsequent offspring will adopt Dwarven culture, including the language. As for why some are "the first of their kind," that's probably because those units are generated, rather than being properly descended from older goblins: when the game generates goblins or elves it typically does this, due to their being immortal.

So, it's kind of a feature with a bug mixed in.

[klefenz]

Goddamn gobbos, its not enough for them to snatch babies, they also have to steal dwarven culture!

If the queen is a gobbo, does that mean the if you get mountainhome status and the monarch comes, youll have a friendly goblin with you?

[cephalo]

Goddamn gobbos, its not enough for them to snatch babies, they also have to steal dwarven culture!

If the queen is a gobbo, does that mean the if you get mountainhome status and the monarch comes, youll have a friendly goblin with you?

I would expect her to act like a normal queen, except 400 years old.

[cephalo]

The goblin entity has [TOLERATES_SITE:CAVE_DETAILED], which means that they will sometimes move voluntarily from their parent civ to a Dwarven civ, and their subsequent offspring will adopt Dwarven culture, including the language. As for why some are "the first of their kind," that's probably because those units are generated, rather than being properly descended from older goblins: when the game generates goblins or elves it typically does this, due to their being immortal.

So, it's kind of a feature with a bug mixed in.

So you are saying that a goblin that is the first of his kind, born with a dwarf name, is a bug. I'm trying to decide if I should make a report.

[klefenz]

Goddamn gobbos, its not enough for them to snatch babies, they also have to steal dwarven culture!

If the queen is a gobbo, does that mean the if you get mountainhome status and the monarch comes, youll have a friendly goblin with you?

I would expect her to act like a normal queen, except 400 years old.

I had vampire queens older than that.

[edit: typo]

[Dibuk]

The goblin entity has [TOLERATES_SITE:CAVE_DETAILED], which means that they will sometimes move voluntarily from their parent civ to a Dwarven civ, and their subsequent offspring will adopt Dwarven culture, including the language. As for why some are "the first of their kind," that's probably because those units are generated, rather than being properly descended from older goblins: when the game generates goblins or elves it typically does this, due to their being immortal.

So, it's kind of a feature with a bug mixed in.

So you are saying that a goblin that is the first of his kind, born with a dwarf name, is a bug. I'm trying to decide if I should make a report.

It's not a bug.

[thvaz]

It's not a bug.

How is it not a bug? If one of the first of its kind it was one of the initial goblins, so it shouldn't have a dwarven name. Goblins with dwarven names must have been born within a dwarf civilization, and no goblin should be one of the initial members of a dwarven civilization.
.

[Scruffy]

It's not a bug.

How is it not a bug? If one of the first of its kind it was one of the initial goblins, so it shouldn't have a dwarven name. Goblins with dwarven names must have been born within a dwarf civilization, and no goblin should be one of the initial members of a dwarven civilization.
.

Like you know, when a site gets taken over by another civ (or is it only if a civ entirely takes over another civ. Don't remember exactly) some of the survivors end up becoming a part of the conquering civ and adopt their culture.
I am fairly certain that they also change their names when this happens instead of keeping their old names and naming their children after the new entity traditions. Atleast in the older versions I have seen many goblins with elven names and such even in relatively young worlds where they have been a part of the initially generated gobbos.

Not sure how this works in the current version though

Edit: I presume it is similar to how when a creature gains a name ie. from killing something the new name gets added retroactively to previous mentions of their name in the legends. I have to test it.
Edit: Okay, just checked the legends in  the world I am currently using and found a human civilization with an elf lawgiver born in -140 but with a human name (Am, meaning hand). They seem to change their name the moment they enter a new entity.
On unrelated news, the same human civ worshiped a bumblebee god of torture and had a kobold (who'se goal was to become a legendary warrior) leading an victorious attack against elves.

[martinuzz]

I presume it is similar to how when a creature gains a name ie. from killing something the new name gets added retroactively to previous mentions of their name in the legends. I have to test it.

That sounds very logical. Don't think it's a bug, but just this.

[Scruffy]

Then ofcourse, this can happen. This is from 0.34 I think



An elven civ where nearly all of the elves are dead and 95% of the civ is composed of goblins.

[cephalo]

If this is a case of retroactive name changes, I wonder if this can still be seen in year one. Another feature of these dwarvish goblins is that they never lived anywhere else besides dwarf sites.

[cephalo]

I think I understand why I have a problem with this.

If goblins are these demon-spawned little wretches that can only enjoy cruelty and the suffering of others, then what must be done is to kill those that you find until they are eliminated from the world. This is fun.

If goblins are merely victims of a dysfunctional culture that can be reformed, then what must be done is to try to 'civilize' them, which is decidedly less fun. If fact, if they can be reformed into productive members of society, then killing them off is an enormous crime. It's like playing a game about the holocaust where you are in the role the bad guy. Not cool.

What I'm getting at I guess is that the purpose of goblins is to be enemies to fight. That's what makes them fun. Their role in this game is being usurped by bogeymen and such, and suddenly we are realizing that goblins can be friends. Are we next going to have bogeymen societies and bogeymen as our local grocer? When will it be okay for us to just kill stuff?

[thvaz]

[quote author=cephalo link=topic=141622.msg5535045#msg5535045 date=1406982204
What I'm getting at I guess is that the purpose of goblins is to be enemies to fight. That's what makes them fun. Their role in this game is being usurped by bogeymen and such, and suddenly we are realizing that goblins can be friends. Are we next going to have bogeymen societies and bogeymen as our local grocer? When will it be okay for us to just kill stuff?
[/quote]

One day DF will allow you to be just a farmer. Then you can let the warriors worry about such things.

About the name exchange - I still think it is a bug, because civilized critters always have names, they are not animals that get names when they kill something. I supposed they could get titles in another language, though.

[therahedwig]

They are both.

Goblins are naturally inclined to evil, having low empathy and naturally violent.
However, that doesn't mean they can't live in other societies, as they are also capable of building up social skills.

It's up to you whether they are evil scum or not.

Personally, I never quite saw the point of going around genociding Elves and Goblins, but that may just be me.

One day DF will allow you to be just a farmer. Then you can let the warriors worry about such things.

About the name exchange - I still think it is a bug, because civilized critters always have names, they are not animals that get names when they kill something. I supposed they could get titles in another language, though.

Or a treasure hunter, or an explorer, or a thief or a merchant.