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Author Topic: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles  (Read 56296 times)

alexandertnt

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #525 on: August 03, 2014, 02:39:09 am »

I agree, that is a problem. Would you like to elaborate a bit rather than just providing a link?
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Tiruin

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #526 on: August 03, 2014, 02:44:12 am »

Due to bad net all I can conclude is rape happens to both males and females.

...Which is pretty much a fact.
*looks at the posters*
And...[continuation, in regard to the thread is]?
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LordBucket

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #527 on: August 03, 2014, 02:46:28 am »

p://www.avoiceformen.com/]Here[/url], if you wanted a specific group. Currently classified as a 'hate group' by some such government organisation in America, but fairly mainstream "Men's Rights" stuff.

Or are you simply assuming that anything about men's rights is automatically in the wrong?

I speicifically went out of my way to differentiate between "groups dealing with mens issues" and "MRA's".

Group dealing with men's issues, MRA's

...ok, glancing through their rticles I'm seeing

 * An article about how various groups who are trying to encourage men and women to work together on parenting are working together.
 * An article about Ukranians protesting forced conscription
 * Misc generic site stuff, new moderators, now publishing in Farsi
 * Article reporting that there was women's protest against sexual harrassment at comicon
 * An article advising men to not be desperate when it comes to women

...yeah, not seeing it. Maybe if I scroll down I'll find the crazy.

 * Link to a no longer available youtube video in which Whoopi Goldberg basically said women shouldn't hit men
 * Yet more articles from women saying that the feminist movement has gone too far

...oh, here we go. Here's something meaty: "How some feminist shaming tactics discredit feminist theory." Ok, let me read this.

Article summary: "feminists say misogyny runs deep in our culture. Yet you can buy shirts that say 'I hate men' 'men are pigs' etc because that's a thing. Apparently there's a feminist group that goes by the name Society for Cutting up Men. Why are these things socially acceptable? And yet when that question is asked, and the hypocrisy is pointed out, feminists say that pointing it out only means you're a mysogynist and use that to shut people up from pointing out the double standard."

It goes on, but that's the basic jist of it.

Sorry guys. I'm not seeing it. You guys gave this site as an example of an unreasonable extremist group. Where's the crazy?



Cheeetar

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LordBucket

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #529 on: August 03, 2014, 03:20:49 am »

From your own links. Cheers.


Ok, so let's look at the crazy:


"In the name of equality and fairness, I am proclaiming October to be Bash a Violent Bitch month. I'd like to make it the objective for the remainder of this month, and all the Octobers that follow, for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women - to beat the living shit out of them."

Huh. Ok. If a woman physically abuses you, physically abuse her back. Not exactly cuddly, and I suspect he might be enjoying it too much...but he's basically saying "if she hits you, hit back harder." Still, if we want to call that crazy...ok.

What else?

"The worst aspect of dating from the perspective of many men is how dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom. Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male variant of date rape."

Meh, ok...I think he's overstating it. Comparing it to rape isn't reasonable, but the thing he's talking about is a real phenomeon.

Go ahead and read the rest on your own. Note that there are a couple women in there too.


Meanwhile, on the crazy side of feminism:

http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2010/11/andrea-dworkin-and-phenomenon-of.html

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.""



http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm

"It is now technically feasible to reproduce without the aid of males (or, for that matter, females) and to produce only females. We must begin immediately to do so."

"...the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples."

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEJfN-jiS4

1:10
"...our movement is about more than just words. It's about actions. About making a difference and redefining the world. It's a proposed global initiative for population reduction that will in a few decades lead to a worldwide male population of roughly 1-10% for the purpose of peace and prosperity around the world.



http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87815

"It is my belief (which I consider factual based on my research) that all men SHOULD be castrated."





Wow. That escalated quickly. "If a women hits you, beat the shit out of her. She hit you first, she's fair game." --> "Men are worthless animals. I propose depopulation and mandatory castration of men on a planetary scale."

Huh.

Cheeetar

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #530 on: August 03, 2014, 03:24:02 am »

Bucket, I feel that you're misinterpreting things on purpose. I'm not sure what you think you gain by doing this- I do hope nobody takes what you're posting at face value given how manipulative you're being.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 03:25:42 am by Cheeetar »
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alexandertnt

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #531 on: August 03, 2014, 03:26:35 am »

Wait, what? I linked to 2 sites to contrast between the two.

From AVFM:

What do you do if your wife is abusive? Beat the shit out of them of course!
I’d like to make it the objective for the remainder of this month, and all the Octobers that follow, for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women - to beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall till the smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back drains from their nose with a few million red corpuscles.

And then make them clean up the mess.

Women who dress provocatively are begging to be raped (usual blame the victim stuff).
But are these women asking to get raped?
In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.
They are freaking begging for it.
Damn near demanding it.

Women's apparently universal love of diamonds is killing men. (remember, he isn't blaiming people who buy diamonds, he isn't even blaiming women who buy diamonds. He is just blaiming women)
The thing that drives the bulk of pollution, wars, white collar criminality, cruelty to animals, human slavery and the like is consumerism. Consumerism, especially the market of unnecessary, embarrassingly vain and useless goods, is a woman’s world.

And they had a conference too


EDIT:

How can anything called "Bash a Violent Bitch Month" not be crazy. What? I mean what?

Quote
"The worst aspect of dating from the perspective of many men is how dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom. Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male variant of date rape."

Meh, ok...I think he's overstating it. Comparing it to rape isn't reasonable, but the thing he's talking about is a real phenomeon.

Isn't reasonable? This guy is comparing being dumped to being raped. I mean, how can this not be crazy?

Quote
Note that there are a couple women in there too.
So?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 03:36:19 am by alexandertnt »
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
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TD1

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #532 on: August 03, 2014, 04:00:12 am »

I agree, that is a problem. Would you like to elaborate a bit rather than just providing a link?
A link is worth a thousand words, and my loathing almost transcends words by itself.

It is a disgrace that such things are often disregarded (And what you see here, no doubt, is but a mere sample. What man would want to talk of being raped by a woman?) while a man has but to hiccup and he is a misogynist. Yes, exaggeration. But a valid point, nonetheless.

Have a story:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Justice, eh. Equality.

A barby house in Berlin, made something other than magical:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There was an additional one with a woman stripped from at least the waist up (the picture didn't go further down, thank goodness) that I will abstain from posting here for obvious reasons. Indeed, the fight for proper female education has gone somewhere when this is what is being taught to young girls outside a Barby House.

One feminist's view on the matter:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Something along a similar vein: http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/no-such-thing-as-misandry/

Something not along the same vein:
http://masculistfeminist.hubpages.com/hub/Misandry-And-The-Media-A-Case-Study-Women-Are-Smarter-Than-Men
As we know, women are quite capable of hating men, and to say that only men are capable of hating women is rather sexist.

Here's another term to call such violence.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
However, even though it uses a general word, "gender," it is still seen as heavily against women. In fact, no mention of any other violence against men is mentioned by CEDAW, despite the fact that we went into woman violence only a few posts ago. Feminism being focusing on eradicating all forms of inequality seems unlikely if they are going to disregard men so completely in a term to do with both sexes.

Also, a piece on the need for male role models, such as teachers. Something else the all-for-equality-for-everyone feminists never bring up or try to rectify. Why? Well, either they simply don't care (Likely,) don't notice that most of their teachers were and are female (unlikely) or they don't see it as an issue because it doesn't touch on the quality of girls' education, and many female jobs that would otherwise be filled by males.
http://masculistfeminist.hubpages.com/hub/The-Lack-Of-Male-Role-Models-In-The-Classroom-And-The-Home-And-The-Gender-Education-Gap

Any of the inevitable replies won't be responded to immediately. It is 10am, and I think I'd prefer to sleep.

Edit:One last thing. When a woman suffers abuse of any sort, they are catered to by the huge majority of society. This is good, and this should have been feminism's aim. It is good it has been achieved. Now, talk of breaking social norms and promoting equality should extend to the man who is beaten, bullied or even raped by his wife. But it's not. The man has next to no support, and very little sympathy. He is at risk of being ridiculed for something that, if expressed by a woman, would be a source of horror.

Why use feminism to fix a system that isn't broken? Women get what assistance they need, if they admit there is a problem and seek help. Now let's help men to get to that same level.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:16:00 am by Th4DwArfY1 »
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Reelya

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #533 on: August 03, 2014, 04:17:34 am »

Quote
However, even though it uses a general word, "gender," it is still seen as heavily against women.

No, it's not "heavily against women", it's solely against women, because that's the definition of "gender-based violence".

Which means domestic violence against men is a different category of violence to similar violence against women, which is gender-based violence.

http://www.unfpa.org/gender/violence.htm

Quote
Gender-based violence also serves – by intention or effect – to perpetuate male power and control.

A women lightly chastising her partner does not serve to "perpetuate male power", merely to restrain his excesses, so it's not "gender-based violence".
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:27:57 am by Reelya »
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LordBucket

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #534 on: August 03, 2014, 04:32:30 am »

What do you do if your wife is abusive? Beat the shit out of them of course!

Time for a personal anecdote. When I was a kid there was a girl who had her arm in a cast. One day she walked up and whacked me in the head with it. We're talking ~5 pounds of fiberglass.  Think I was about 7 years old at the time. What did I do? I went to the nearest adult and told on her. He basically approached it from the angle of "What do you mean a girl hit you? Are you a wimp? You're a boy. she's a girl. She can't possibly hurt you, so man up!"

So once this girl realized that she wouldn't get in trouble and I wouldn't hit her back she made a game out of beating me in the head with the cast, pushing me up against a wall and continually whacking me while I cried.

That night I went home and told my dad about it. Want to know what he said? "Next time she hits you, hit her back." So the next day when she hit me...I hit her back.

She never hit me again.

You might not like it. You might find the characterization of "beat her to a pulp instead of allowing her to continue to hide behind her cultural wall of 'never hit a girl' as she continues to abuse you" unpleasant. But 'if she hits you, hit her back' has value. It is possible for a woman to be in the wrong.

If you want a unpleasant picture, imagine yourself in that situation and imagine how it would have affected your life if my father hadn't said what he said. Imagine week after week of being held up against the wall, being beaten in the head by a girl with a cast...all while "what are you, a wimp? Man up!" resonates in your head. Think carefully about that.

Fortunately, that's not what happened. To me. It probably has happened to some guys.

Quote
Women who dress provocatively are begging to be raped (usual blame the victim stuff).

Look, I'm not going to defend everything they're saying. Like I said, some of what I saw seemed unreasonable, and I said so. But I'm not going to gush and rally and cry over how unreasonable it is. Yes, some of it looks unreasonable. By all means sort out the reasonable from the unreasonable. But I saw an awful lot of reasonable before we got to the unreasonable.

When we see the guy claiming that dressing provocatively justifies rape (and incidentally I note that that article was deleted from the site) ...let's not make the mistake of automatically ignoring the guy being fined for public indecency because women used him for sex while he was unconscious. Let's not ignore the fake paternity tests or the the guys receiving court orders to pay child support for children who aren't even theirs.

Women are not untouchably holy, pure and just simply by virtue of being women.

I first entered this thread by pointing out that if you keep pushing a pendulum that's offbalanced, it doesn't stop in the middle. It keeps swinging to be offbalanced in the other direction. At one time, women in the US didn't have the right to vote. At one time they couldn't own property. At one time it was considered good conduct for a husband to beat his wife to keep her in line.

Those times are passed, and I think most of us in this thread hadn't even born yet when any of those things were still true. But our society still has inertia from the push that got us to this point, and it's still pushing for more...and more. Where's the middle of the pendulum? Personally I think women have it better than men in this country already. And yet the pushing continues. I rather suspect that "the unreasonable ones" are probably the guys who've been stepped on by women while simultaneously being told that they're not allowed to do anything about it. The guys who've been taught that they need to work their entire lives to support a woman, and then watched as a woman got a promotion instead and their wife left them for somebody with more money. The guys who married for love, were cheated on and then received divorce papers and ended up losing their house and half their income.

That kind of thing does happen. And if too many guys endure that, all while being told that life is unfair to women and that men are oppressors simply by their nature and they deserve everything bad that happens to them...sooner or later those guys are going to start pushing the pendulum back in the other direction.

To any women reading this: yes, women who lived before you were born dealt with a lot of unfairness. I advise you to very carefully evaluate your situation, your society and your daily life before you push too hard on that pendulum. Sooner or later it might push back.

Cheeetar

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #535 on: August 03, 2014, 04:33:58 am »

Bucket, anecdotal evidence is looked down upon for many reasons. Also, your example doesn't really fit with the thing you're saying is fine. The person talking is fantasizing about being given an excuse to inflict tremendous pain upon a woman- that's not normal. The way he describes it is unhealthy.

Women get what assistance they need, if they admit there is a problem and seek help. Now let's help men to get to that same level.

Sure, go ahead and set up a shelter for battered men- there's not really anything stopping you. I don't see anybody disagreeing with you here.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:36:31 am by Cheeetar »
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Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Orange Wizard

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #536 on: August 03, 2014, 04:38:41 am »

Bucket, anecdotal evidence is looked down upon for many reasons.
He does have a point, you know. I'm willing to bet that many of us have seen or heard of (in school, at least) a guy getting in trouble for hitting a girl, even when it's provoked.
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Cheeetar

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #537 on: August 03, 2014, 04:41:09 am »

Bucket, anecdotal evidence is looked down upon for many reasons.
He does have a point, you know. I'm willing to bet that many of us have seen or heard of (in school, at least) a guy getting in trouble for hitting a girl, even when it's provoked.

Yes, he's saying that. What does that have relevance to? We were initially discussing 'Men's Rights Activism' at his request, I don't understand why we should so suddenly change the topic- he merely introduced it to distract from what was being discussed.
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Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Orange Wizard

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #538 on: August 03, 2014, 04:44:30 am »

Woah. LordBucket's good at this.
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LordBucket

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #539 on: August 03, 2014, 04:51:29 am »

The person talking is fantasizing about being given an excuse to inflict tremendous pain upon a woman- that's not normal. The way he describes it is unhealthy.

Yes, yes. The extreme anti-feminist or whatever we want to call him is fantasizing about having a good excuse to beat up a woman. I agree this is unhealthy.

Meanwhile, on the crazy side of feminism:

http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2010/11/andrea-dworkin-and-phenomenon-of.html

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.""



http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm

"It is now technically feasible to reproduce without the aid of males (or, for that matter, females) and to produce only females. We must begin immediately to do so."

"...the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples."

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEJfN-jiS4

1:10
"...our movement is about more than just words. It's about actions. About making a difference and redefining the world. It's a proposed global initiative for population reduction that will in a few decades lead to a worldwide male population of roughly 1-10% for the purpose of peace and prosperity around the world.



http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87815

"It is my belief (which I consider factual based on my research) that all men SHOULD be castrated."



Before we get too caught up with the bad man fantasizing about having a good excuse to beat a woman...let's remember that there are crazies on both sides of this.

I will accept that the women who want to castrate men and keep them in cages and depopulate the world of men...probably aren't representative of the average feminist.

I ask you to accept that the guys fantasizing about having good reasons to beat up women probably also aren't representative of the average male rights advocate.




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