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[alexandertnt]

I think we need to clear up this idea that MRA = Activists for mens issues.

MRA's are not activists for mens issues, they are people who use potentially legitimate male issues and their name to cower behind when people rightfully accuse them of misogyny. MRA's are not the male equivelant of feminism.

Rates of domestic abuse are lowered by harsher penalties and encouraging those who are in an abusive relationship to speak out, not by victimising half the population.

Part of the problem here is the exact opposite sometimes happens. Women are sometimes blaimed for the abuse they recieve, not victimised.

[Orange Wizard]

Rates of domestic abuse are lowered by harsher penalties and encouraging those who are in an abusive relationship to speak out, not by victimising half the population.

Part of the problem here is the exact opposite sometimes happens. Women are sometimes blamed for the abuse they receive, not victimised.

I wasn't aware that ever happened. Anyone who does that is an arsehole of the highest degree.

[Angle]

I don't know about men's rights, but there's plenty of activism that could be done for men's benefit. But MRA's don't seem to have any interest in that.

[Reelya]

Let me state now, that I'm not an MRA and do not frequent any of their sites.

Are they inherently gendered issues, or are they issues caused by men, and felt by men?

So, you're saying something only counts as a gender-issue (for men) if you can show that it's directly caused by the other gender? I think that's a double-standard as we would never apply that to dismiss women's issues. Anti-girl bias in the classroom? Doesn't exist because the teacher is most likely a woman! Gender stereotyping your daughter by a single mother? it's not a "gendered" issue because a woman did it!

I think it's clear that this argument wouldn't fly for even a second if we were talking about girls. Gender roles are maintained by both genders, for both genders, and bringing in "but men did it to themselves" isn't a valid argument, nor is "but women did it to themselves".

Let's look at the pay gap for single people. Ones without kids.

in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group.

Ah, but we can say "that's not discriminatory, because more girls go to college, thus increasing their earning capacity! It's all down to personal decisions, so it's not discriminatory!". Well, would it ever fly the other way around: is there any time that men earning more would be accepted as "non-discriminatory" because he made different decisions to a woman? i.e. more men choosing college majors that lead to high-paying jobs? If "going to college" is an equal and fair decision, isn't choosing a major also "equal and fair" or are things only "equal and fair" when they favor a particular side, and for everything which falls the other way it's "unfair"?

[LordBucket]

I think we need to clear up this idea that MRA = Activists for mens issues.

MRA's are not activists for mens issues, they are people who use potentially legitimate male issues and their name to cower behind when people rightfully accuse them of misogyny. MRA's are not the male equivelant of feminism.

I'd never heard of them until rolepgeek mentioned them. Taking a look...it seems that the wikipedia page with their name contains a redirect to a general men's movement page, the website by the name mensrightsactivism.com appears to be not be owned by men's activists...but rather by people bashing them...and a google search for "men's rights activists gives me a bunch of results mostly saying that people who champion for men's rights are bad rather than any actual activism or people who say that they do.

Is this even a thing, or is this just some sort of preemptive anti-anti-feminist thing to make men who oppose feminism look bad?


If I do a search for stormfront, I find stormfront. If I look for nambla, I find nambla. Looking for mra, I'm not even finding any groups who claim to go by that name. Only sites saying that the people who do are dumb.

[Lyeos]

The MRA "movement" is essentially the equivalent of Tumblr feminists, but more troll-y than serious, from what I've gathered.

* Lyeos shrugs.

Edit: Granted, all of this is from things feminists have said. Sooo.... Yeah.
How trustworthy this is is questionable.

[Cheeetar]

I think we need to clear up this idea that MRA = Activists for mens issues.

MRA's are not activists for mens issues, they are people who use potentially legitimate male issues and their name to cower behind when people rightfully accuse them of misogyny. MRA's are not the male equivelant of feminism.

I'd never heard of them until rolepgeek mentioned them. Taking a look...it seems that the wikipedia page with their name contains a redirect to a general men's movement page, the website by the name mensrightsactivism.com appears to be not be owned by men's activists...but rather by people bashing them...and a google search for "men's rights activists gives me a bunch of results mostly saying that people who champion for men's rights are bad rather than any actual activism or people who say that they do.

Is this even a thing, or is this just some sort of preemptive anti-anti-feminist thing to make men who oppose feminism look bad?


If I do a search for stormfront, I find stormfront. If I look for nambla, I find nambla. Looking for mra, I'm not even finding any groups who claim to go by that name. Only sites saying that the people who do are dumb.

This one took me approximately 1 minute. More time because the 'new reply has been posted' thing kicked my post down the stairs.

[Reelya]

From the site:

I just read the English translation of a Norwegian news article wherein a man was fined 8,500 Kroner ($1,500) because he was raped. While he was passed out in public, two women performed oral sex on him. Four eyewitnesses were ignored.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fmeninger%2Fdebatt%2FVoldtatte-menn-risikerer-boter-og-latterliggjoring-7643980.html&edit-text=

Rape victims should not be punished for their perpetrators crimes. Please help this victim and all other boys and men who are victims of sexual assault and domestic violence in Norway to obtain equal treatment under the law.

That does sound like a legal issue there.

The startling facts on female sexual aggression.

It turns out, women can be just as aggressive with sexual advances as men.

Aizeman & Kelley, 1988 – 14% of men (and 29% of women) reported they had been forced to have intercourse against their will

Anderson 1998 – Survey of 461 women (general population) 43% secured sexual acts by verbal coercion; 36.5% by getting a man intoxicated; threat of force – 27.8%, use of force – 20%;  By threatening a man with a weapon – 8.9%.

Anderson, 1999 – 43% of college women admitted to using verbal or physical pressure to obtain sex

Anderson and Aymami (1993) 28.5% of women reported the use of verbal coercion, 14.7% had coerced a man into sexual activity by getting him intoxicated and 7.1% had threatened or used physical force.

Fiebert & Tucci (1998) – 70% of male college students reported experiencing some type of harassment, pressuring, or coercion by a female

Hannon, Kunetz, Van Laar, & Williams (1996) – 10% of surveyed male college students reported experiencing a completed sexual assault perpetrated by a female intimate partner

Now, this is a legitimate question / issue here, because the tendency is to dismiss these data or question the methodology of these surveys, in a way that would be seen as extremely sexist if it was applied to men-vs-women data.

[LordBucket]

p://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/]This one[/url] took me approximately 1 minute.

...ok, but if I understand correctly people are apparently distinguising "men's rights activists" as some specific group separate and distinct from men's movements in general. Your link is a generic reddit page, and if I do  text search on it the only instance of the word "activist" at all are links to totally other reddit pages.

Also, looking over the content of the page itself...articles about women speaking out against feminism...an article about a man in India who was apparently fined for public indecency because two women performed sex acts on him while he was unconscious from having drunk too much...an article about fake pregnancy/dna tests being sold online to fraudulently trick men into paying child support for children that aren't theirs...

These seem like legitimate complaints to me. I don't get the impression that these are the people being alluded to.


Or are you simply assuming that anything about men's rights is automatically in the wrong?

[Cheeetar]

p://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/]This one[/url] took me approximately 1 minute.

...ok, but if I understand correctly people are apparently distinguising "men's rights activists" as some specific group separate and distinct from men's movements in general. Your link is a generic reddit page, and if I do  text search on it the only instance of the word "activist" at all are links to totally other reddit pages.

Also, looking over the content of the page itself...articles about women speaking out against feminism...an article about a man in India who was apparently fined for public indecency because two women performed sex acts on him while he was unconscious from having drunk too much...an article about fake pregnancy/dna tests being sold online to fraudulently trick men into paying child support for children that aren't theirs...

These seem like legitimate complaints to me. I don't get the impression that these are the people being alluded to.


Or are you simply assuming that anything about men's rights is automatically in the wrong?

Here, if you wanted a specific group. Currently classified as a 'hate group' by some such government organisation in America, but fairly mainstream "Men's Rights" stuff.

[alexandertnt]

Or are you simply assuming that anything about men's rights is automatically in the wrong?

I speicifically went out of my way to differentiate between "groups dealing with mens issues" and "MRA's".

Group dealing with men's issues, MRA's

[TD1]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandardRapefemaleOnMale

[alexandertnt]

I agree, that is a problem. Would you like to elaborate a bit rather than just providing a link to TvTropes?

I would also like to point out that the western workd (i.e. arguably more feminist-y than the rest of the world) are more likely to criminalize such behaviour.

[TD1]

http://thoughtcatalog.com/lorenzo-jensen-iii/2014/08/19-men-share-stories-of-being-raped-by-a-woman-nsfw/

[Orange Wizard]

http://thoughtcatalog.com/lorenzo-jensen-iii/2014/08/19-men-share-stories-of-being-raped-by-a-woman-nsfw/

For the sake of the argument I hope those are real.

For the sake of the people involved I really, really, hope they're false.