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[GavJ]

do you honestly believe that men, on average, dying approximately 7-8 years younger affects any of this?

Uh, I do. Any significant sexual dimorphism is a good candidate for likely impacts on this discussion, and that's a fairly major one.

in a twisted attempt to prove that somehow, men are the victims here

And men ARE sometimes the victims. The world is not "EVERYBODY from group A wins!" or "EVERYBODY from group B wins!" There are local pockets and swirls that go against the global trend in anything.


If you imagine this is an abstract map of a subset of situations in the world,
Pure white = the strongest anti-female discrimination.
Pure black = the strongest anti-male discrimination.

On AVERAGE it might be skewed fairly strongly toward white overalll, but locally, there are instances of moderate to strong male victimization.

For a real life example, female on male rape is actually not uncommon at all (not AS common as the reverse).

[Neonivek]

I never liked this new "Everything is grey" mentality.

Where is something isn't pure white or pure black... that it is immediately grey...

Something grey can go either way... it isn't "grey morality" when the decision is the right thing to do but there is a cost. >_<.

It is as odd a view as people who think that everything is 100% good or 100% bad.

sorry tangent.

[GavJ]

I never liked this new "Everything is grey" mentality.

Where is something isn't pure white or pure black... that it is immediately grey...

Something grey can go either way... it isn't "grey morality" when the decision is the right thing to do but there is a cost. >_<.

It is as odd a view as people who think that everything is 100% good or 100% bad.

sorry tangent.

If I'm reading correctly, the summary of your post is basically "People thinking that things are not 100% good or bad is as odd as people thinking that things are 100% good or bad"
That's a logical contradiction.

(well not strictly. You can just think everything in the universe is "odd" i guess, but it implies that there is something you think isn't odd, yet does not allow for any such thing)

[Neonivek]

Ok let me say it another way.

People who say everything is in shades of grey are as weird as people who say everything is in black and white.

[GavJ]

Ah, so you want to say that some things are gray, some things are black and white.

(this was confusing, since black and white ARE shades of gray, but whatever. Terminology confusion, not worth worrying about).

In that case, I agree and I'm not sure who you're arguing against. The example image I posted DOES have areas of both pure white and pure black in it. Representing the fact that in some areas of life, there is 100% pure victimization of men, and sometimes you will find 100% pure victimization of women. In most areas of life, both happen to different degrees, but I am not claiming that's true of all areas of life.

[Orange Wizard]

I'm one of those people who thinks everything is either 100% good or 100% bad, but bad is sometimes necessary to prevent worse bad (I'm sorry, English) or effect greater good. The grey comes in when you have to decide how much bad is worth how much good.

And another tangent, I'm afraid:

...you're just pretending to be that ridiculous, right? Please?

Ridiculous? Maternity != fathers.

Edit: To clarify, I'm just being pedantic about paternity leave, which is a concept that makes lots of sense.

[Cheeetar]

Don't misunderstand. I'm the guy wearing the pretty pony princess avatar here. I'm not saying "rawwr guys must be macho rawwrr!"

I've seen you bring this up multiple times in the past as a defense against you possibly being judgmental in your description of some men- it's not! It's like saying "I have a black best friend, so I can't possibly be racist."

[palsch]

Don't have much time at the moment, but LordBucket, you seem to have deliberately missed the point in some places. People argue that reducing gender constraints on men will improve their lot in a number of fields in a number of ways and you make it about taking female roles not improving life expectancy (despite the obvious example of how macho culture deterring people going to doctors, which was hinted at in the post you were replying to). I'd more say that it's the consideration of feminine things being seen generally as negative which hurts both men and women and is a significant contributors to many areas where men have it 'worse'.

BTW, with 10 seconds google, feminist pushing to have more women working in coal mines "for equality." I know you might not count this because it's India, but women have been systematically pushed out of the workforce by a combination of social/workforce trends and legal restrictions over the last century, and that article is a feminist argument for why this is a problem.

Safe and legal access to abortion... let's not pretend that isn't constantly threatened and attacked, both as a political football and as a practical attack on women's rights. The same often goes for healthcare in general (not to mention the gender specific issues women can have with medical practitioners) and education (albeit in different ways). A lot of the gains have been patchy and not reflected in all areas on all levels, which means some women are still going to get screwed over for their gender. I think that alone is reason to continue to push.

Basically your post seems to boil down to, "If we focus on the things I care about, then there is no need for feminism." Which, well, fair enough. But choosing not to care about certain social inequalities or discrimination doesn't make them go away.

[DJ]

Paternity leave, as well as maternity leave for any amount of time beyond maybe a couple of weeks, is for taking care of needy newborn babies, which men and women can both do and either one may NEED to do, depending. (I.e. if the woman is the bigger breadwinner, then she might go back to work as soon as physically able while the dad takes off 2-3 months for the newborn care)

Breastfeeding. Sure, there's all sorts of baby formulas out there, but they're all inferior to the real thing.

[penguinofhonor]

They can bottle that stuff now, DJ. It's the 21st century.

[Cheeetar]

Paternity leave, as well as maternity leave for any amount of time beyond maybe a couple of weeks, is for taking care of needy newborn babies, which men and women can both do and either one may NEED to do, depending. (I.e. if the woman is the bigger breadwinner, then she might go back to work as soon as physically able while the dad takes off 2-3 months for the newborn care)

Breastfeeding. Sure, there's all sorts of baby formulas out there, but they're all inferior to the real thing.

Men can lactate too.

[TD1]

Wha?

[Jelle]

Only ever so slightly, unless there's hormone treatment involved. Hardly enough for a baby I should think.
 
Also there's no reason a mother can't simply bottle some of her milk for the father to use.

[TD1]

I repeat, wha...?

Men can lactate? 0_o

I'm not sure if I want to look that up.

[Tiruin]

I repeat, wha...?

Men can lactate? 0_o

I'm not sure if I want to look that up.

Yes :v
But not all.
Look it up == RESEARCH IT.
...
...
I think this is part of a derail away from gender roles. ._.