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[Rolepgeek]

Well, I just don't see why it matters, honestly, whether hormones or shit influence behavior.

I just say we treat people as people and leave gender out of the equation until they can make that decision for themselves.

Unfortunately, that's a society wide issue that can't be solved simply by parent intervention; everyone would have to be in on it, effectively, and that's...unlikely, to say the least. Which is sad and unfortunate.

Basically I'm curious as to what the point of the current argument trail is, really.

[GavJ]

The article I linked was exactly evidence of that kind. Maybe you can comment on it.

Thank you Reelya, that is indeed such an article.

However, I don't understand where, if at all, they controlled for the confound of other children or adults coercing or influencing a certain type of play BECAUSE of physical differences brought on by testosterone differences.

It certainly does show a correlation  hormones <--> gender role behavior.  But not necessarily a directional hormones --> gender role behavior, as far as I can tell? (they might only be TRYING to show a correlation, some studies only attempt to do that).


They mention controlling these factors:

Gestational age at amniocentesis, maternal age, maternal education, and child’s age at PSAI assessment were included for control purposes.

The first and last are just to screen out preemies, the next two presumably an attempt to get roughly controlled culture and parenting types.
But making sure your parents have similar parenting types does not ensure that the parenting style they all have is not one of "encourage kids into our pre-existing gender role assumptions"


Note:
IF they could establish that parents were unable to even intuitively distinguish children of varying testosterone levels, then this paper would become much more interesting. But parents might be able to. Perhaps more amniotic testosterone leads to faster muscle development or something like that, and so they kick a little bit more or whatnot, and parents go "oh look at them! Gonna be such a soccer player" blah blah... so it begins, before you're even born.

[GavJ]

Well, I just don't see why it matters, honestly, whether hormones or shit influence behavior.
I just say we treat people as people and leave gender out of the equation until they can make that decision for themselves.

it matters because what we want is what's healthiest for children. We can't know what is healthiest if we don't study the causes and outcomes and alternatives.

Equal treatment MIGHT be what's healthy.
Or it might turn out that children need guidance about their roles and will get super frustrated and develop unhealthy tendencies if unguided, perhaps. *shrug*

Science can help determine answers to those options. Assumptions don't do as good of a job.

(edited quite a bit, sorry)

[Neonivek]

Well no GavJ, the secret to it is not to make someone beholden to those stereotypes and roles.

That way people can believe whatever the heck they want...

[GavJ]

That way people can believe whatever the heck they want...

Which like I said (in my edited post, maybe you responded earlier), is not necessarily a noble goal, if children are frustrated to the point of developing disorders and pathologies due to missing something that they crave and depend on. or are dysfunctional later in their lives, etc.

Children unarguably REQUIRE lots of direction about lots of things, and in most cases, it would be considered clearly abusive to deny that direction to them. For instance, refusing to tell them what different words mean, because "you want them to believe whatever the heck they want" about English language.  You would probably get arrested for that.

I'm not claiming that gender roles are the same, and that they need guidance. but they MIGHT. We need to study it further. Not just assume out of thin air that a hands off approach is best without any data.




(it could also certainly be a gray, not black or white case, such as "you should give them direction if they don't exhibit any strong personal opinions contrary, but if they do, let them go with it" sort of thing. Doesn't have to be a one-stop-solution for everybody as for what's healthiest. Again, needs research)

[Jelle]

Theres sort of two lines of discussion going on here, and it is a bit confusing:

1) Genes
2) Hormones

I'm a little confused as to this division. While hormonal balances are influenced by external factors as well, and genes influence more than just the production of hormones; given that genes are pretty much blueprints for the production of proteins and stuff, which includes the production of cellular produced hormones as well as the formation and functioning of larger hormone producing organs (most notably the thyroid and gonads I think?), it stands to reason 1 very much influences 2.

That isn't to say genetics by themselves do not influence behavior, I mentioned hormones in my previous post because it's  the obvious example. Excluding the influence of hormones, I guess the only other way genes determine our behavior is through the direct functioning of brain/nerve cells? By which I mean inborn instinctive behavior and minor differences in how neurons connect. I must admit, I wouldn't know the first thing about that stuff.

Here's a good read to show what I'm trying to say here, since I know I'm not exactly the most articulate and verbose of persons. It talks about some interesting experiments, to.

[Eagle_eye]

It's pretty clear that children don't need to be encouraged to adopt most of the behaviors we associate with one gender or the other, because there are other cultures with very different gender roles that seem to be doing just fine, psychologically.

[Angle]

But they might need some kind of gender roles, even if they're completely different from ours.

[Sergarr]

But they might need some kind of gender roles, even if they're completely different from ours.

MMORPG already have these:
Tanks, Healers and DPS.

They're not exactly gender roles, but they're roles nonetheless.

[Angle]

That actually gets back to my first post, where I propose that it might be worthwhile to consider alternate sets of roles. You would eed to translate those into real life terms, though.

[Rolepgeek]

That actually gets back to my first post, where I propose that it might be worthwhile to consider alternate sets of roles. You would eed to translate those into real life terms, though.

Tank: Person who takes all the shit from customers and the company and deals with it handily.
DPS: Person who gets shit done
Healer: Person who makes sure no one goes insane from stress

[Neonivek]

Sorry Healer but you are fired... We need to cycle people faster so we can pay them less.

[LordBucket]

Would somebody explain to me which precisely are the "gender roles" that people are so upset about? I see a lot of people speaking as if it's known and assumed that these are bad(tm) things, but I see very little explanation of what it is we're even talking about.

[Neonivek]

Would somebody explain to me which precisely are the "gender roles" that people are so upset about? I see a lot of people speaking as if it's known and assumed that these are bad(tm) things, but I see very little explanation of what it is we're even talking about.

I think people are just against gender roles in general. Imposing upon people roles that they may or may not want to fulfill or teaching them to live up to them.

[Putnam]

Would somebody explain to me which precisely are the "gender roles" that people are so upset about? I see a lot of people speaking as if it's known and assumed that these are bad(tm) things, but I see very little explanation of what it is we're even talking about.

Malibu Stacy?