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[TolyK]

Tiruin, what action did you use this night? Don't say on who or what, perhaps not even concretely what it did, but what you used.

[TolyK]

I might be able to confirm a townie.

Also, Varee, what is the deal with that house thing? We're all inside Wuba's house...

[Imp]

Hey TolyK, you have a few questions from a few people from near the end of D1 that never got answered.  I was interested if you were going to go back and answer those without being specifically reminded.

Did you intend to get around to answering them if you hadn't been reminded?

[TolyK]

No, I didn't, unless I would've done a reread and seen them. Thanks for the reminder, though, I'll look at things addressed to me asap.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Hello everyone. This is a pleasure to play again. Vurently PFP from work so substance will wait. For whoever asked about my thought earlier, I'll say that a SK is pretty much a given in a large game like this one. You need it. Knowing what happen in Byor I'd suspect a cult or some other nasty thing too. In any case, glad we are rid of sgakerag, that role would have been an enormous pain in the ass. Good riddance. As for flabbort, trying to survive is understandable, but using the one shot so fast looks like a big overreaction . Town came up ahead in that case, at least. The filler talk and loss if miller is something I wanna look more in detail soon.

4 new post
God damn people you guys should be sleeping. Young guns these days ...

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

I might be able to confirm a townie.

 
Confirming a townie ain't something easy in a By or with all the funky matchup , redirect and all that jazz. Also plant a sign of KILL ME over your head
. Scum hate lightningrod

[TolyK]

No, I'm just in a different time zone. GMT+2, 10am now.

That's true, of course, which is something I might confirm only to me.

Also, we almost definitely have an SK, given an SK-ally (unless Wuba really is a bastard in regard to Shakerag ), and we have another third party to be sure.

Given at least two killing teams, I'd guess we either have an arsonist or a really strange mafia kill.

[flabort]

No, I'm just in a different time zone. GMT+2, 10am now.

That's true, of course, which is something I might confirm only to me.

Also, we almost definitely have an SK, given an SK-ally (unless Wuba really is a bastard in regard to Shakerag ), and we have another third party to be sure.

Given at least two killing teams, I'd guess we either have an arsonist or a really strange mafia kill.

Where are you getting this information? How do you know there's another third party after the SK and SK-ally?
How do you know there's two killing teams when there were no kills last night?

[TolyK]

I happened to see this while reading (yes, I see posts 352 and 353, but I'm on phone and can only quote one at a time).

Pardon Shakerag

I'm afraid not.

Wtf was this? Apparently a mayor who failed?

@flabort: Rolefishing, I see... )
Two killing teams as in teams that need to kill everyone.

Also, given an SK, I bet the third party is a survivor.

[IronyOwl]

Cheeetar:

I see desperation, but not suspicion (is it possible to suspect yourself?) It was a choice between me (a confirmed townie to myself) and Shakerag dying. In such a time pressured moment, I didn't at all feel comfortable saying 'yes okay let's let any one person decide who should die here.'

And why would a townie be desperate here? Why would you be concerned that somebody would come along and finish the job at all? Is there any reason not to heavily suspect you from anyone else's perspective?

Quick hammering Shakerag wasn't necessary for me to win, but it sure seems like it helped!

Haha well all's well that ends well!

Really though that was panicky, scummy bullshit and I want to know why.


Tiruin:

> I've lost my Miller ability (...yeah.)

Per cycle or what? Permanently?

NQT
Brilliant design knowing my power. What was all that about knowing the name, by the way?

What?

*prods everyone with a stick*

Laaaaaaateeeeeeer.


flabort:

Wait, does that mean we have an SK? Great.

Really. You want us to believe that you just now figured this out. "SKs? What SKs?! I don't know anything about SKs! Why I didn' even notice anything about SKs when the guy I suspected and helped murder flipped 'SK ALLY!'"

C) I didn't want to be responsible for killing either of them if they wound up town.
G) Whoever cast the hammer vote would come under suspicion from the whole town.

Therefor, while it was a hasty and self-preserving action, there was plenty of reason behind it and I believed it would help town.


Maybe it did, but it means that you were the hang-man, the one with blood on your hands now.
Try living with that when it makes everyone suspicious of you.

So your scummy, panicky, self-serving bullshit is perfectly understandable because you want to live and it "helps town," but Cheeetar's awfully suspicious for pulling the trigger on the gun you cocked for pretty much identical reasons?


MBP: Are you an arsonist again?


TolyK:

Wtf was this? Apparently a mayor who failed?

Shak had already been hammered, so it presumably could not trigger.

[Cheeetar]

Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)

The sk ally is a dude who's trying to help the sk, so he's anti-town. By getting rid of him we're one step closer to winning.
I claim no responsibility for preventing deaths this night, nor do I claim to have no responsibility

Yeah...SK Ally.
However it is unsure, though I've to ask any vets who have knowledge about alignments and somesuch in this case *stares at OP*, that the ally knew who was the SK, other than there was an SK for the rule to take place.

So I'm pretty wary regarding that case and your attitude--though knowing you...I am undecided.
Also why the paradox of claiming a yes or no and leaning on the 'or' in the middle? :I

...And thanks, but it seems someone swapped it (given the wording) or stole it. Less likely the latter.

I think I may have had something to do with it. I didn't receive much info on my PM from Webadict.

Spoiler: Imp (click to show/hide)

Cheeetar, if another player had made the choice you did at the end of D1, what questions would you want to ask that player?  Do you consider 'acting to save oneself' to be appropriate for every player under every condition of high pressure/immediate threat of death?

Not for every circumstance, but if a townie is given a choice between themselves dying and somebody else who they don't really know anything about yet dying, the townie should probably pick the other dude. Is this a controversial view?

Spoiler: Irony Owl (click to show/hide)

Cheeetar:

I see desperation, but not suspicion (is it possible to suspect yourself?) It was a choice between me (a confirmed townie to myself) and Shakerag dying. In such a time pressured moment, I didn't at all feel comfortable saying 'yes okay let's let any one person decide who should die here.'

And why would a townie be desperate here? Why would you be concerned that somebody would come along and finish the job at all? Is there any reason not to heavily suspect you from anyone else's perspective?

Quick hammering Shakerag wasn't necessary for me to win, but it sure seems like it helped!

Haha well all's well that ends well!

Really though that was panicky, scummy bullshit and I want to know why.

I was worried somebody would finish me off because we're in a 17 player game of mafia, and some of those 17 players are scum! Yes, I'd rather that I had lived than Shakerag, even before we knew who he was.

Seeing as you see Flabort as equally suspicious for creating the situation- why do you view my reaction as more scummy than him setting it up?

Spoiler: Flabort (click to show/hide)

Cheetar:

Could you explain your actions at day end yesterday further?

Flabort: Could you do so as well?

Also congrats on killing an Sk ally.

How would an SK ally even work, anyways?
The SK would have to kill it's ally to win. Shakerag would have to die anyways for him to win.
Wait, does that mean we have an SK? Great.

As for your question, I knew that:
A) I would die for reals if I was voted that day after being daykilled, because my revive would not have time to recharge.
B) Someone having more votes on them then me would make me safe. Yes, this was incredibly self-serving, but I feel like my powers could help town. Less so now that I've actually claimed them, but I think they can still help; turning the night game against Scum into an excruciating game of "Did I or didn't I, and if I did where?". Night WIFOM vs Scum, if you will.
C) I didn't want to be responsible for killing either of them if they wound up town.
D) I didn't want to cause a tie.
E) I essentially presented the two of them with a variation on Prisoner's Dilemma. If one votes the other, they survive the day. If anyone else considered them scummy, though, they didn't. If they managed to each vote each other simultaneously (they didn't), they'd both survive due to it becoming a tie and no-lynch.
F) I didn't trust either of them.
G) Whoever cast the hammer vote would come under suspicion from the whole town.

Therefor, while it was a hasty and self-preserving action, there was plenty of reason behind it and I believed it would help town.

I'll respond to these in order.
a) Yep! Just like any normal townie who didn't have a revive.
b) Yep!
c) Because that would cast suspicion on you? Weren't you entirely certain we were both scum?
d) Fair enough.
e) I don't really understand this. You wanted to pit us against each other because
f) Sure.
g) So you want somebody else to be viewed as responsible for the lynch rather than yourself?

This all combined is very suspicious. You were worried about dying because you had two votes on you, so you decided to act in such a way that you believed would kill either of the people voting for you and make it so you weren't viewed as responsible (even though you claimed to believe both of us were scum.) Why would you want to avoid responsibility if you were so sure you'd get a scum kill?

Flabort, why did you use your one-shot so early? Your move seemed incredibly desperate.

Let's see: I had two choices. Die and never use it, or use it and not know for sure the outcome.
So I went with the advice of "remember to use your one-shots, don't hoard them", and used it. Using an early one-shot is not suspicious.

It is suspicious if you use it for seemingly no reason to essentially daykill someone. And no, don't create a false dilemma for yourself. You wouldn't die if you hadn't used it- there were two people voting you of a necessary nine.

I see desperation, but not suspicion (is it possible to suspect yourself?) It was a choice between me (a confirmed townie to myself) and Shakerag dying. In such a time pressured moment, I didn't at all feel comfortable saying 'yes okay let's let any one person decide who should die here.'

Quick hammering Shakerag wasn't necessary for me to win, but it sure seems like it helped!

Maybe it did, but it means that you were the hang-man, the one with blood on your hands now.
Try living with that when it makes everyone suspicious of you.

Yeah, that's not a scummy thing to say at all- totally towny to gloat about making somebody else suspicious!

Cheeetar If nobody had chosen to vote anyone else, do you think that 2 votes is not scary? If you're town, what do you see the best plan from here being?

If nobody had chosen to vote anyone else...? What, you mean in the event that for 48 hours nobody had voted for anybody else? I don't think that would happen, and even then, that doesn't necessitate you using your one-shot 48 hours early.

Yes, I'm town, and the best plan from here seems to be lynching you.

Here's my case against Flabort: He claimed to be certain both me and Shakerag were scum, and that's why he essentially condemned one of us to death. He does not, however, want to be viewed as responsible for it- he wants everyone to say that I'm to blame for Shakerag's death. He made the situation occur, then blamed me for reacting rationally to it. He thinks I'm a scummy person for lynching a SK ally instead of letting myself die - however, he's perfectly towny for panicking at the sight of two votes and using his one-shot to OMGUS. Do note that his reasons for suspecting me so far had been 'that guy just doesn't sit right with me.'

I'm going to unvote Nerjin and vote Flabort in the hope that his resurrect was a one-shot. I do still however want Nerjin to explain his attempted saving of Shakerag.

[IronyOwl]

Cheeetar:

I think I may have had something to do with it. I didn't receive much info on my PM from Webadict.

And have you messaged him for confirmation?

And why would a townie be desperate here? Why would you be concerned that somebody would come along and finish the job at all? Is there any reason not to heavily suspect you from anyone else's perspective?

I was worried somebody would finish me off because we're in a 17 player game of mafia, and some of those 17 players are scum! Yes, I'd rather that I had lived than Shakerag, even before we knew who he was.

But if scum finished you off, that'd make them rather suspicious, wouldn't it? Were you not prepared to give your life in order to incriminate scum?

I hope that second part isn't intended to be an answer to my third question. "Killing someone else to save my own scummy hide is understandable because I wanted to live!" could be applied to anyone at any time. Would you view tying the vote to save yourself as understandable as well? Vigkilling someone for the sole reason that they might drive a lynch on you tomorrow? Driving a lynch on someone because they suspect you and therefore might in some way lead to your death at some point?

Speaking of which, what about Shakerag? If he'd gotten on first and hammered you instead, what would your reaction be if we all went "Well that was perfectly understandable. Now to lynch flabort for giving him the opportunity!"

Seeing as you see Flabort as equally suspicious for creating the situation- why do you view my reaction as more scummy than him setting it up?

He had the good sense to set it up but not actually fire. If he'd panicked all the way, he could have just hammered a target, any target, all on his own. Instead he set up a loaded gun at each of two suspects, and left it up to everyone else as to which or any trigger they wanted to pull. Meaning, nominally, to the town collectively. If they'd had the chance, anyone before you could have pulled the shit you pulled on their preferred target, and then justified it with "Well but I wanted this one to live!" But I suspect not many of them would have, because they'd have known it was scummy and counterproductive. Even flabort knew that, in the midst of panicking and scrambling to save his own skin otherwise.

Everyone but you, in other words, probably knew that was a terrible, scummy idea.

But hey, let's ask them about it. Why not, right?


Imp, TolyK, CAPTAIN EAGLES, Varee: If you were in Cheeetar or Shakerag's position yesterday, would you have hammered the other choice as quickly as you could have? If you'd gotten on before either of them, would you have immediately hammered whichever one of them you liked or trusted least? Why?

[Cheeetar]

Cheeetar:

I think I may have had something to do with it. I didn't receive much info on my PM from Webadict.

And have you messaged him for confirmation?

No- the questions I'd already asked about my role were sufficient. I'm not going to ask Webadict to spell things out for me because I'm fairly sure the uncertainty of what exactly happened is on purpose.

And why would a townie be desperate here? Why would you be concerned that somebody would come along and finish the job at all? Is there any reason not to heavily suspect you from anyone else's perspective?

I was worried somebody would finish me off because we're in a 17 player game of mafia, and some of those 17 players are scum! Yes, I'd rather that I had lived than Shakerag, even before we knew who he was.

But if scum finished you off, that'd make them rather suspicious, wouldn't it? Were you not prepared to give your life in order to incriminate scum?

So a townie should be eager to die because then the people who voted him would be suspicious...? I reject that. I'm not a jester- I have no desire to be lynched. If me being lynched aids the town later, huzzah, but I'm not planning for it to happen.

I hope that second part isn't intended to be an answer to my third question. "Killing someone else to save my own scummy hide is understandable because I wanted to live!" could be applied to anyone at any time. Would you view tying the vote to save yourself as understandable as well? Vigkilling someone for the sole reason that they might drive a lynch on you tomorrow? Driving a lynch on someone because they suspect you and therefore might in some way lead to your death at some point?

Speaking of which, what about Shakerag? If he'd gotten on first and hammered you instead, what would your reaction be if we all went "Well that was perfectly understandable. Now to lynch flabort for giving him the opportunity!"

No, my reaction would've been- I probably would've done the same in that circumstance, and now I'm going to lynch Flabort not for giving him the opportunity, but for putting him in the circumstance where it was suicide or lynching somebody else. I didn't get an 'opportunity' to lynch someone. I was essentially forced to- it was me or him.

Seeing as you see Flabort as equally suspicious for creating the situation- why do you view my reaction as more scummy than him setting it up?

He had the good sense to set it up but not actually fire. If he'd panicked all the way, he could have just hammered a target, any target, all on his own. Instead he set up a loaded gun at each of two suspects, and left it up to everyone else as to which or any trigger they wanted to pull. Meaning, nominally, to the town collectively. If they'd had the chance, anyone before you could have pulled the shit you pulled on their preferred target, and then justified it with "Well but I wanted this one to live!" But I suspect not many of them would have, because they'd have known it was scummy and counterproductive. Even flabort knew that, in the midst of panicking and scrambling to save his own skin otherwise.

Everyone but you, in other words, probably knew that was a terrible, scummy idea.

But hey, let's ask them about it. Why not, right?

No, he couldn't've. The way I see it, he could put X number of votes on two people - that is, both people would receive the same amount of votes from him. So if he set it to 9 it would've tied the day.

[notquitethere]

Tiruin, I already told you, I don't care what your ability was called (I don't have any power that targets ability names), I just wanted to know whether it fit with your theme (so I could judge how believable your miller claim was). If you suspected me of replacing your miller power with a filler power, then I'm not sure why you'd be voting me... did you want to be a miller?!

Varee Who did you build a house for then?

If we lynch Flabort, someone will have to night kill him or day kill him to stop him coming back. But frankly, I don't see Wuba giving scum an insta-hammer ability like that.

I'd rather lynch Toaster, who's yet to place a vote despite saying he will (ok, in fairness, the quicklynch probably happened before he got a chance). I want to see whether he's able to press a case today.

Did I miss any questions?

[IronyOwl]

Cheeetar:

No- the questions I'd already asked about my role were sufficient. I'm not going to ask Webadict to spell things out for me because I'm fairly sure the uncertainty of what exactly happened is on purpose.

I see. Is there a point at which you will be more forthcoming about what exactly you think happened?

So a townie should be eager to die because then the people who voted him would be suspicious...? I reject that. I'm not a jester- I have no desire to be lynched. If me being lynched aids the town later, huzzah, but I'm not planning for it to happen.

A townie should be eager to die if the only way to kill him is either the town's will or something scum have to reveal themselves to do.

For instance, you claim to be highly suspicious of flabort for doing that to you, yes? So even if he'd hammered you outright, might it be fair to say that'd have been an excellent trade and that you were glad he'd outed himself to do it? Or would you still bemoan dying even though you didn't want to, because all that was accomplished was making flabort look suspicious?

In fact, let me ask you this: Are you glad flabort did what he did?

I hope that second part isn't intended to be an answer to my third question. "Killing someone else to save my own scummy hide is understandable because I wanted to live!" could be applied to anyone at any time. Would you view tying the vote to save yourself as understandable as well? Vigkilling someone for the sole reason that they might drive a lynch on you tomorrow? Driving a lynch on someone because they suspect you and therefore might in some way lead to your death at some point?

Speaking of which, what about Shakerag? If he'd gotten on first and hammered you instead, what would your reaction be if we all went "Well that was perfectly understandable. Now to lynch flabort for giving him the opportunity!"

No, my reaction would've been- I probably would've done the same in that circumstance, and now I'm going to lynch Flabort not for giving him the opportunity, but for putting him in the circumstance where it was suicide or lynching somebody else. I didn't get an 'opportunity' to lynch someone. I was essentially forced to- it was me or him.

So I take it your answer to all of the above scenarios is "yes?" Even while town and thinking somebody else is town, any danger to yourself is a you or them scenario, right? And not just a you or them scenario, but an immediate you or them scenario; can't give town time to discuss it or anything like that. Gotta survive.

I'm sure you're really town.

No, he couldn't've. The way I see it, he could put X number of votes on two people - that is, both people would receive the same amount of votes from him. So if he set it to 9 it would've tied the day.

Mm. Possibly. Let's ask him about it too.


flabort: Did your one-shot target two or up to two targets? What would have happened if you applied an uneven number of votes to each, or tried to vote additional targets?


NQT:

If we lynch Flabort, someone will have to night kill him or day kill him to stop him coming back. But frankly, I don't see Wuba giving scum an insta-hammer ability like that.

Now that I think about it, a self-reviving role might make more sense if he also periodically killed himself. Or had some other condition whereupon he was brutally murdered without overt outside help.