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Author Topic: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN  (Read 89895 times)

notquitethere

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #930 on: August 13, 2014, 12:08:34 pm »

A lot of good material here, I especially think Blocked (with a random player) is a reasonable -1 flaw. I'm wary of including thing like Bandwagoner that unduly add extra layers of things I have to check (if I could automate some of this stuff with a spreadsheet or something that'd be great).
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Persus13

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #931 on: August 13, 2014, 12:15:49 pm »

Another power I thought up.

Bad Santa- You give someone both a random power and a random flaw.

A lot of good material here, I especially think Blocked (with a random player) is a reasonable -1 flaw. I'm wary of including thing like Bandwagoner that unduly add extra layers of things I have to check (if I could automate some of this stuff with a spreadsheet or something that'd be great).
Yeah, I was thinking that might be hard on the moderator. Also, the player would know who they couldn't target, correct?

How about Cornered (You can only vote if you yourself have been voted)?
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TolyK

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #932 on: August 13, 2014, 12:16:52 pm »

I've tried to make a spreadsheet (with macros) before, but it was really hard to make resilient.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #933 on: August 13, 2014, 01:23:30 pm »

I'll have a think about Flaborts late-game suggestions. Extramurderous would seem like a nice way to undermine super-vigs being automatically seen as town, but I wanted to move away from having specific scum-or-town only powers.
IMO a better solution would be to limit all townies to one kill per night.  That way the "one kill for scum" rule could eliminate team possibilities but not outright clear people.

That's a nice tactic, though it's very vulnerable to power stealing tactics, and canny town players could attempt to nip it in the bud by all buying Super Saint.
I like Toony's idea, I'd refine it in two ways.
1. Include a defensive member who takes either Reflect or Mask Swap, to thwart any town attacks on the voters
2. Start off with different builds including Flexible and only switch to the vote strategy once it's clear you can control the lynch

The current problem I see is actually in the power of power-swap builds.  Perhaps make power swap swap a random power you own with a random power they do, or increase it's price, because, as Toaster proved, it was an effective way to farm points.
That wouldn't do all that much under the current rules, with Flexible you could convert all your points into Inflates to make it highly likely that one of those would be swapped.  I think the best change would be to make it so you can only swap powers that cost 2 or maybe 3 points, so there's a chance of you losing points when you using it.
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flabort

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #934 on: August 13, 2014, 02:48:41 pm »

Going through stuff in order as I see it.
I'll have a think about Flaborts late-game suggestions. Extramurderous would seem like a nice way to undermine super-vigs being automatically seen as town, but I wanted to move away from having specific scum-or-town only powers.
It was also designed with a free free- for the purpose of not being scum-only.
As it's not actually the kill power, you can buy it too, and have a free-kill, extramurderous, and free-exile, plus prolific: Resulting in 5 possible kills for a town supervig.

Yeah, my late-game powers are just suggestions, and I don't even like all of them. Feel free to scrap them or include them as you wish.

Yeah, Insidious is making the cut (it'd be a good way of funding a mercenary build). Relatedly, I'm beefing up Mercenary to a -2, because right now nobody is tempted to take it normally.
-snip-
Auto-Swap is being included:
2 - Auto Swap (swap any auto you have with a random auto your target has.)

This is the Kill-Immune replacement I'm considering:
5 - Kill Resistant - (you ignore one kill per cycle)
Whoohoo! I am so making a merc build next game. Quite possible free-auto-swap powered.

Also, interesting choice. I like the Kill-resistance.

Also, NQT, I think one-shot should be changed so that it reads: free powers instead lose their free upgrade.  It allows you to have technically two-shot powers.
Do it!
I like your idea of One-shot scrapping 'free' to allow two-shot powers.

In general, I want to give people more power to disrupt xp-farming, so I'd appreciate any suggestions on that front.
Yay!
And:
Muscle-Fatigue (2?): Destroy 2 XP from your target. Your target can go into negative XP from this power.

Leafsnail: Eh. I would disagree with your limit on kills, period, but then again it could make things more interesting. Yeah, if we limit kill use to one per person, then Extramurderous would be a viable power for both town and scum.
Result:
Kill (6): Your target dies and roleflips. You may only use this power once per cycle, and if you are part of a scum team your team may not use this power if you already have. Free- and Prolific do not affect Kill. Kill and Exile consider each other to be the same power.
Extramurderous (12): Your target dies and roleflips. This does not count as Kill or Exile.
Exile (10): Your target dies, but does not roleflip and cannot read the deadchat. This power counts as Kill; You may only use this power once per cycle, you may not use this power if a team-mate already has, Free- and Prolific do not affect Exile. Kill and Exile consider each other to be the same power.

More flaws are necessary...?

Fragile (-2): Any power costing 5 or more points without modifiers that targets you is also a kill.
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flabort

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #935 on: August 13, 2014, 02:49:14 pm »

OK, so what's the confirmed list of changes for the next game so far, anyways?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #936 on: August 13, 2014, 03:36:35 pm »

I don't see why we need Extramurderous at all really.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #937 on: August 13, 2014, 03:37:45 pm »

I don't see why we need Extramurderous at all really.
Nor do I, honestly.

webadict

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #938 on: August 13, 2014, 06:14:39 pm »

I don't see why we need Extramurderous at all really.
Nor do I, honestly.
Is access to deadchat something that needs to be denied?
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notquitethere

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #939 on: August 14, 2014, 04:34:18 am »

Okay, so I've decided for now against caps on buying-selling per day, as that would force me to track yet another thing throughout the day. What I'm considering instead is ruling that a player cannot sell a power that they've bought or stolen on the same day that they've bought/stolen it. This will mean less rapid turnover of powers, giving more time for things to be stolen or interfered with. This should also lessen how OP Flexible is.

I'm considering the suggestion that no player can kill more than once in a day— that would move the game in the direction I want it to, lessening the difference between scum and town.

Heres the latest power list. As ever, first I provisionally include a bunch of stuff, then everyone else tells me why such and such a thing would be horribly broken and the game steadily refines. I've included a bunch of people's suggestions, and I've changed how Innate powers work to make them more truly innate.

New powers include Super-Curse (give a player a specific flaw), Raise Dead (raising dead players as patsies), Hypnotism (Target mask uses one of their powers, randomly selected, on a target of your choice). This latter allows for Manchurian Candidate-style scum team that gives a town player a kill then hypnotises them into killing for them.

Some of the powers have been price-adjusted slightly, so if something seems to cheap or expensive, do say.

Spoiler: Current Power List (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 08:52:09 am by notquitethere »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #940 on: August 14, 2014, 07:37:05 am »

I'm considering the suggestion that no player can kill more than once in a day— that would move the game in the direction I want it to, lessening the difference between scum and town.
I don't think this is really a positive thing, scum should have to play differently to town or else all the powers become kindof meaningless (scum could just play exactly like townies).  The first game avoided this through Infallible Alignment Cop, Miller and Super-Convert, which made the game completely insane but it at least meant the scum had to be pro-active.

That said it's hard to create a difference in a gametype like this.

3 – Chat (Set up a private chat between any two other targets)
I think this is far too expensive to ever be used at 3.  Maybe at 1 it has some uses when you get a confirmed townie.

3 - Patsy: pick a new colour for a mask; that mask is now seen in-play (players always know how many masks are in-play and what colour they are). Like any mask, it can be a valid target for any power.
I don't really see the point of Patsy, or why it's so expensive.  Players will know it's a patsy because of the way the colour has re-appeared.
3 - Return (Name a power you think the target has. This is sold off at its usual price for that person.)
Why would you ever use this instead of Recycle?

5 - Blackmail (The target's vote counts for 0 votes until after the next lynch.
This should be cheaper, due to Votesteal also existing at 5 points.  I guess this one is supposed to be "quieter"?

-2 - Guilty Conscience (You die if your vote is on a town player and they get mislynched. Kill resistant does not save against this, but Resurrection still triggers.)[/spoiler]
This is strictly less severe than Unable to Vote, which is already a popular flaw.

I would suggest making it -1, and also making it and Unable to Vote mutually exclusive.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #941 on: August 14, 2014, 08:44:58 am »

Here's my two cents:
Get rid of recycle. Recycle-sapping is still a broken combo.

Chat should probably cost two points.

Readd alignment cop (not infallible, just normal) and innocent. Do not add miller. This way, the scum have to be vulnerable to one of two power types: either they can be detected by alignment cop, or they spend a point to become immune to that but can be rooted out by rolecops. This game, the scum were only found through poor power choices and an educated guess at the last minute.

This would also allow for interesting combos, such as alignment cop free-self-chat, which, while not infallible, could prove effective.

I think that making convert a 7-cost one-shot power could be interesting, if it counted towards the group scumkill limit. However, this is still probably not the best idea, since then over the course of turns a clever scumteam could chain together their converts to convert the whole town, so probably best to leave convert out.

notquitethere

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #942 on: August 14, 2014, 09:21:28 am »

Leafsnail
I don't think this is really a positive thing, scum should have to play differently to town or else all the powers become kindof meaningless (scum could just play exactly like townies).
You make a reasonable point, but as we saw with this game, blending in with town isn't necessarily the best strategy.

3 – Chat (Set up a private chat between any two other targets)
I think this is far too expensive to ever be used at 3.  Maybe at 1 it has some uses when you get a confirmed townie.
I'll try it at 2, and then Self-Chat will only cost 3.

I don't really see the point of Patsy, or why it's so expensive.  Players will know it's a patsy because of the way the colour has re-appeared.
It sets things up for mask swapping, and town can even mask swap with a patsy or redirect harmful things on to them without worrying about hitting a member of the town. Also, players won't know who's a patsy if they're created before masks are revealed at the beginning of the game. I'll consider making it a bit cheaper.

3 - Return (Name a power you think the target has. This is sold off at its usual price for that person.)
Why would you ever use this instead of Recycle?
I scrapped recycle, it just managed to sneak back into my local list.

5 - Blackmail (The target's vote counts for 0 votes until after the next lynch.
This should be cheaper, due to Votesteal also existing at 5 points.  I guess this one is supposed to be "quieter"?
Yeah I'll make it 1 cheaper, also Vote Steal permanently takes 1 vote from a player, this temporarily takes all their votes (as a counter to vote stealers).

-2 - Guilty Conscience (You die if your vote is on a town player and they get mislynched. Kill resistant does not save against this, but Resurrection still triggers.)[/spoiler]
This is strictly less severe than Unable to Vote, which is already a popular flaw.

I would suggest making it -1, and also making it and Unable to Vote mutually exclusive.
I'll make it mutually exclusive with unable to vote, but Unable To Vote has no chance of killing you if you make a bad choice so I'm not sure it's less severe.

I'm also making Blatant require at least one power to take.

Wolf
Here's my two cents:
Get rid of recycle. Recycle-sapping is still a broken combo.
Yeah, that wasn't intentionally slipped back in.

Chat should probably cost two points.
Agreed.

Readd alignment cop (not infallible, just normal) and innocent. Do not add miller. This way, the scum have to be vulnerable to one of two power types: either they can be detected by alignment cop, or they spend a point to become immune to that but can be rooted out by rolecops. This game, the scum were only found through poor power choices and an educated guess at the last minute.
Yeah, but I liked that town had to work harder: it's already too pro-town..

I think that making convert a 7-cost one-shot power could be interesting, if it counted towards the group scumkill limit. However, this is still probably not the best idea, since then over the course of turns a clever scumteam could chain together their converts to convert the whole town, so probably best to leave convert out.
I'm still tempted to re-include conversions.

The trouble with Conversions are two-fold: one, some players find it frustrating to be converted; two, conversion can be overpowered. I'm thinking of Bringing back Conversion at 7 points, with the following wording:

7 - Tempt (Target is sent an offer: they can join the scum team or they can choose not to. The target can send a single message with this action attempt. This power can never be self targeted.)
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Persus13

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #943 on: August 14, 2014, 10:08:00 am »

I like the idea behind Tempt, but I could see it being a useless expensive power when scum are losing, because no one wants to join a team that's losing.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Choose-Your-Own-Masquerade - Dance 3 - TOWN WIN
« Reply #944 on: August 14, 2014, 10:12:32 am »

Yeah, but I liked that town had to work harder: it's already too pro-town..
The game is extremely pro-town, which is why I suggested adding third-parties to the game.  This way, there are people with other wincons to fulfill causing confusion, and confusion almost always benefits the scumteam.  The setup is actually uniquely conducive to this: there are many possible ways to achieve a given wincon.

For added giggles, alignment cop could show town/not-town, which would make it less overtly powerful and break the game less if third parties were included.

I like the idea behind Tempt, but I could see it being a useless expensive power when scum are losing, because no one wants to join a team that's losing.
This.  Conversions in general are a bad idea in my opinion, since it allows the scumteam to rapidly grow in size and strength.  The only reason town won the first CYOM was because of fortune teller being broken, a well-placed roleblock, and a poor scum setup that had no backup plan.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 10:15:37 am by 4maskwolf »
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