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[NW_Kohaku]

Walking forward is an excellent way to get where you're going provided that you're facing the way you want to go, there are no obstacles in your way, you have legs, your feet aren't tied together, you don't walk off a cliff...

The difference is that Toady has already coded the ability to walk.  Toady tends to take a lot longer to code in new AI to figure out much more complex tasks, like "recognizing when you are burning to death in a fire", and has yet to code his AI to "recognize you are exerting yourself into a coma and your last 8 charge attacks didn't do any good anyway", resulting in the hilarious sight of creatures like elephants and trolls charging until they collapse from exhaustion. 

In 0.40.24, I saw a giant olm, a toothless creature half the size of a troll eventually gum a troll to death in a battle that lasted about a year because the troll would repeatedly ram the olm until collapsing from exhaustion, while the olm ineffectually pawed with clawless limbs and tried to nibble the troll to death.  (The troll eventually bled to death from an eye wound.)

The same really goes for how a GCS will only attack the head, rendering a dwarf unarmored but for a copper helmet invincible.  Because that's what the AI tells it to do, that's what it does.

The list of basic conditions that seems so stupid and obvious?  Those are not conditions the AI is capable of judging for itself right now, just the same as the AI wasn't capable of recognizing fire was bad for years, or that suicidal attacks are bad now.  Programming AI it detailed, difficult, easily stymied by the slightest mistake, and time-consuming. 

Compared to all these things, a judgement call as to whether running or turning into a plant is an extremely nuanced decision, one that defies a direct, clear-cut answer.  (Unless there is no reversal of a plant transformation, in which case the answer is "never use this unless you want to commit suicide" as a tantrum alternative or maybe a religious fanaticism from elves thing.  And again, judging by Toady's other spells, there's zero guarantee that it's "game balanced" or "sane to use".)

[KillzEmAllGod]

Combat styles sounds like it'll fix the ai when it comes to stupid combat at least for attacks.
However the overall AI for something like a siege won't be done till he gets to the military rework which sounds like it would be around the same time as economy.

People really have been doing the turn into plant ability to death.

[PatrikLundell]

Combat styles sounds like it'll fix the ai when it comes to stupid combat at least for attacks.
However the overall AI for something like a siege won't be done till he gets to the military rework which sounds like it would be around the same time as economy.

People really have been doing the turn into plant ability to death.

Combat styles will probably involves an AI that is capable of using those styles in a (sort of) reasonable fashion, but that doesn't guarantee procedurally generated magic abilities are automatically balanced as well (although one might hope they will be dealt with as well).

And turning into a plant CAN be lethal, as discussed
In addition, it's used as an example of why magic abilities that aren't directly combat oriented, and without complicated side effect cause complications. You might take the existing size change magic (as present in were creatures) and discuss the complications of figuring out when it's a good idea to use it and when it's a really stupid one instead, assuming the spell comes under NPC control. Or, summon water to douse flames: How do I ensure the dorf doesn't use it while standing where the water will flow and drown? How will I stop dorfs from putting out fires deliberately started? And even worse, a spell generating fire in the hand of an NPC that is supposed to be allied with other NPCs that aren't fire proof? A fire spell AND a water generation spell present at the same time?

[Untrustedlife]

Combat styles sounds like it'll fix the ai when it comes to stupid combat at least for attacks.
However the overall AI for something like a siege won't be done till he gets to the military rework which sounds like it would be around the same time as economy.

People really have been doing the turn into plant ability to death.

Combat styles will probably involves an AI that is capable of using those styles in a (sort of) reasonable fashion, but that doesn't guarantee procedurally generated magic abilities are automatically balanced as well (although one might hope they will be dealt with as well).

And turning into a plant CAN be lethal, as discussed
In addition, it's used as an example of why magic abilities that aren't directly combat oriented, and without complicated side effect cause complications. You might take the existing size change magic (as present in were creatures) and discuss the complications of figuring out when it's a good idea to use it and when it's a really stupid one instead, assuming the spell comes under NPC control. Or, summon water to douse flames: How do I ensure the dorf doesn't use it while standing where the water will flow and drown? How will I stop dorfs from putting out fires deliberately started? And even worse, a spell generating fire in the hand of an NPC that is supposed to be allied with other NPCs that aren't fire proof? A fire spell AND a water generation spell present at the same time?

how about this

Hey toady how do you plan to handle the obvious AI implications of some spells, such as douse flames, summon water and change into plant, people have been arguing with each other over this stuff for the past few days nonstop, i'm sure you have thought of this, so can you elaborate as to how you will handle it?

there now we will all know at the end of the month.

[PatrikLundell]

:
how about this

Hey toady how do you plan to handle the obvious AI implications of some spells, such as douse flames, summon water and change into plant, people have been arguing with each other over this stuff for the past few days nonstop, i'm sure you have thought of this, so can you elaborate as to how you will handle it?

there now we will all know at the end of the month.

Hmpf! Next you're going to tell us to find a horse and count its teeth rather than discuss the number in a calm, rational way!
(As far as I understand, the fool who came with that proposals to the monks discussing that issue received a sound beating for his insolence).

Good call!

[Dirst]

Hmpf! Next you're going to tell us to find a horse and count its teeth rather than discuss the number in a calm, rational way!

Why wait that long?  There are zero horses in my room, and zero horse teeth.  Obviously there is a one-to-one correspondence, and each horse has one tooth.



Looking forward to hear what Toady's thoughts on the main conversation.

[ZM5]

To be fair, wouldn't turning into a plant or some edible item be deadly if you wanted to assassinate someone?

You get into their room, turn into food on their table, they eat you, then in the midst of it you transform back and rip them open from the inside, then you make your getaway.

Kind of like some Mortal Kombat fatalities, come to think of it.

[PatrikLundell]

Well, I've seen a real world picture of a dead sea bird with a gut ripped open by an octopus beak from the inside, and a tentacle hanging out through the hole. The insides of a victims are also rather cramped, and the rib cage might turn into an iron maiden. Not to mention that the victim might want to prepare you first, like slicing Assassin McCarrot into slices before eating him with the rest of the salad. And Assassin McApple might not like being peeled either.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

OKAY LET'S STOP THIS NOW

THIS IS GETTING TOO CLOSE TO VORE FOR MY LIKING

AND I'M SURE TOADY AGREES

[Random_Dragon]

I was gonna say, do not encourage me to discuss the vorishness of this. o3o

[Max™]

OKAY LET'S STOP THIS NOW

THIS IS GETTING TOO CLOSE TO VORE FOR MY LIKING

AND I'M SURE TOADY AGREES

You better watch out, you're looking very... drinkable.

[Random_Dragon]

Yes, we already have mug vore. XP

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

May the almighty Toad come in and cleanse this thread with the Purity of the Lo-

The hell?! this is the FotF thread! If this gets locked... no one ever knows what's going to happen!

Okay, seriously, we should stop the derails, derpdragon.

[Random_Dragon]

Fiiine, I'm not the one that started the "turn into a plant" debate and derailed it further into a discussion on the tactical utility of getting eaten. :V

[therahedwig]

Ok... different topic: What kind of conditional workorders are YOU gonna set up every time you start a new fortress once this function gets in?

My main one would be 'if plump helmet > 10, brew', because I always lose track of the still.