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[Random_Dragon]

I always thought it was weird how humans had "law-givers" instead of kings or queens - that seems like a name a really primitive race would give their leader - like even more primitive than goblins.

"Ey, Break-the-Face, I got da message for de law-giver! Where 'e at?"
"Oh I dunno Burn-the-Flesh, last I saw 'im 'e was getting drunk at the Honeys of Meat and vomiting uncontrollably after Rip-the-Skin punched 'im in the gut."

For some reason it gives me a stereotypical Norse vibe, though it may be the mead halls as well. Too bad these pitiful humans never put any mead or even dining furniture in the mead halls. ;w;

[ZM5]

For some reason it gives me a stereotypical Norse vibe, though it may be the mead halls as well. Too bad these pitiful humans never put any mead or even dining furniture in the mead halls. ;w;

Yeah I do think they're supposed to be Norse-like with the mead halls and such, it's just the "law-giver" title is somewhat weird.

And yeah, it's a shame the mead halls don't have dining rooms or anything where you'd see the local warriors drinking alcohol and brawling. Oh well, maybe it'll be in a future update.

[NJW2000]

No mead? They don't even have any damn bees.

[Untrustedlife]

Usually fantasy worlds are ranked by "magic prevalence"(which you have)  and "really chaotic magic to extremely consistent controlled magic", with the extreme end of the chaos scale to the right being that magic can essentially be studied as a science and is perfectly consistent, the extreme left of the scale is where magic is extremely unpredictable and dangerous, do you plan to add a "How chaotic is magic" scale in addition to the magical prevalence scale? OR will we just have the prevalence scale.

[Random_Dragon]

No mead? They don't even have any damn bees.

They have hives, the relevant bee-keeping+pressing professions, and the mead reaction. But I've never SEEN humans OR dwarves bring mead, and dwarves seem to lack mead on the embark screen.

Same reason my kobolds in Kobold Kamp never seem to bring kumis/kefir, because it seems custom reactions aren't always reflected in embark/trade.

[NJW2000]

I meant that I've never seen hives generated in a human town or village or city. Just like siege weapons or windmills, they're something civilisations can construct, but don't see any reason to.

[Random_Dragon]

I'd assumed it was just background flavor stuff. I've seen them bring hives for trade, if I recall.

[NW_Kohaku]

Usually fantasy worlds are ranked by "magic prevalence"(which you have)  and "really chaotic magic to extremely consistent controlled magic", with the extreme end of the chaos scale to the right being that magic can essentially be studied as a science and is perfectly consistent, the extreme left of the scale is where magic is extremely unpredictable and dangerous, do you plan to add a "How chaotic is magic" scale in addition to the magical prevalence scale? OR will we just have the prevalence scale.

As we've debated in at least a dozen rather lengthy magic threads, though, the problem with "chaotic" magic is that I've not seen any way to actually implement "chaotic" magic in any way that wouldn't result in an overly fiddly system that is of no practical value or the default reaction to anyone practicing magic to be throwing them into an "unfortunate accident" chamber. 

Spoiler: elaboration (click to show/hide)

"Chaotic magic" generally comes down to having a "crit fail" chance that results in a roll on the Wild Magic Table.  Any roll on said chart generally winds up either totally insignificant (wizard makes bubbles appear or changes color) or fortress-doomingly terrible (like summoning HFS in your dining hall or making a volcano appear in your fort) with little in-between, and any magic system that uses the Wild Magic Table is rarely ever capable of accomplishing what "non magic" in DF can accomplish without the law of averages eventually destroying your fort for no good reason. 

Beyond that, a Wild Magic Table just aren't any more satisfyingly exciting or unpredictable any more than different "strains" of werewhatevers are. All werewhatevers are basically the same in how you actually react to and prepare for them, so there is little meaningful randomness they present from one type of werewhatever to another. Even a wildly divergent Wild Magic Table will basically require you prepare for every single possible result on that table.  Evil biome effects/weather, for example, takes so much coding for each unique possibility that only a few random events can be programmed, and players are already aware of how to react to each of the possible results.

The fundamental problem, as I mentioned a few posts ago, is that you cannot generate the sort of "mystery", as Vattic puts it, behind magic in a formalized system.  The computer runs on fully rational science-like laws, so the fully rational science-like laws for building magic will always produce rational science-like laws for magic.

[Random_Dragon]

And personally I like the idea of a magic system that has a logic to it, or failing that allow for variation in some effects. Something unpredictable, maybe unreliable, but you still know what elements of the end result will vary.

[PatrikLundell]

No mead? They don't even have any damn bees.

They have hives, the relevant bee-keeping+pressing professions, and the mead reaction. But I've never SEEN humans OR dwarves bring mead, and dwarves seem to lack mead on the embark screen.

Same reason my kobolds in Kobold Kamp never seem to bring kumis/kefir, because it seems custom reactions aren't always reflected in embark/trade.

The reason they don't bring any mead is that they kill the bees to extract bee poison which they DO bring in barrels, rather than use the bees to produce honey (which, in DF, kills the bees as the honey is harvested).

[Untrustedlife]

Usually fantasy worlds are ranked by "magic prevalence"(which you have)  and "really chaotic magic to extremely consistent controlled magic", with the extreme end of the chaos scale to the right being that magic can essentially be studied as a science and is perfectly consistent, the extreme left of the scale is where magic is extremely unpredictable and dangerous, do you plan to add a "How chaotic is magic" scale in addition to the magical prevalence scale? OR will we just have the prevalence scale.

As we've debated in at least a dozen rather lengthy magic threads, though, the problem with "chaotic" magic is that I've not seen any way to actually implement "chaotic" magic in any way that wouldn't result in an overly fiddly system that is of no practical value or the default reaction to anyone practicing magic to be throwing them into an "unfortunate accident" chamber. 

Spoiler: elaboration (click to show/hide)

"Chaotic magic" generally comes down to having a "crit fail" chance that results in a roll on the Wild Magic Table.  Any roll on said chart generally winds up either totally insignificant (wizard makes bubbles appear or changes color) or fortress-doomingly terrible (like summoning HFS in your dining hall or making a volcano appear in your fort) with little in-between, and any magic system that uses the Wild Magic Table is rarely ever capable of accomplishing what "non magic" in DF can accomplish without the law of averages eventually destroying your fort for no good reason. 

Beyond that, a Wild Magic Table just aren't any more satisfyingly exciting or unpredictable any more than different "strains" of werewhatevers are. All werewhatevers are basically the same in how you actually react to and prepare for them, so there is little meaningful randomness they present from one type of werewhatever to another. Even a wildly divergent Wild Magic Table will basically require you prepare for every single possible result on that table.  Evil biome effects/weather, for example, takes so much coding for each unique possibility that only a few random events can be programmed, and players are already aware of how to react to each of the possible results.

The fundamental problem, as I mentioned a few posts ago, is that you cannot generate the sort of "mystery", as Vattic puts it, behind magic in a formalized system.  The computer runs on fully rational science-like laws, so the fully rational science-like laws for building magic will always produce rational science-like laws for magic.

I'm sure toady would come up with something anyway, he does that kind of thing. Like he said in the alternate planes df talk about an artifact that slowly brings your fort into the fire dimension,

this is also why we would have a slider. some people, like me, like the concept of a world where magic is rare but dangerous and unpredictable, and some like magic being all over the place and unpredictable, creating a dystopian type world.

There are many fantasy settings with chaotic magic, and toady already has a list of magic effects, so he can just use a random number and grab an effect, I don't care if it is always super usefull or not "you turn into a plant" is just fine , since you chose to have your magic chaotic.

I dunno.

Perhaps it chooses  a sphere, like "plants" and then just generates a bunch of plant effects and chooses from those at random, the spheres are for that kind of thing, (in the myth talk if a creature was created at the beginning by a vapor type force they had weather type effects,(toady even pointed that out)  and the brain lizards had phsychic type effects. that shouldn't be hard to choose a sphere right?

even now demons associated with death get access to all necromancy secrets your world has.

At that point it isn't as chaotic though since it has a rule.

[Putnam]

Do you have plans to (someday) add a way for the community to script the game using an embedded language?

yes; i remember the phrase "ghosts of dead programmers". Also:

I guess it's easier to mod, but it should probably be an accepted scripting language instead.  The brackets are weird and cumbersome.

[NW_Kohaku]

I'm sure toady would come up with something anyway, he does that kind of thing. Like he said in the alternate planes df talk about an artifact that slowly brings your fort into the fire dimension,

this is also why we would have a slider. some people, like me, like the concept of a world where magic is rare but dangerous and unpredictable, and some like magic being all over the place and unpredictable, creating a dystopian type world.

There are many fantasy settings with chaotic magic, and toady already has a list of magic effects, so he can just use a random number and grab an effect, I don't care if it is always super usefull or not "you turn into a plant" is just fine , since you chose to have your magic chaotic.

Well, simply saying "Toady will think of something" is at least magical thinking... Again, this isn't a matter of just using some elegant code, I have yet to find anyone who can even conceptually describe a system that produces magic effects that achieve the sorts of ill-described, nebulous effects you tend to find in fantasy fiction.  All they come up with is a Wild Magic Table. It doesn't matter how good a coder Toady is, he can't do the impossible.  Judging by what magic interactions he's done, for that matter, vampires and necromancers are entirely "predictable" magic, while werewhatevers are unpredictable only in that instead of being attacked by a werewolf, you instead get attacked by a weresheep. 

Fantasy novels have the advantage of withholding information from the reader.  Magic effects can be a "surprise" because the reader wasn't clued in to what they do, before, but that effect is rapidly lost when you systemize and make routine that sort of magic interaction.  For that matter, fiction novels don't need to keep a simulation of the exact physical effects a spell has upon every rock in such a way that a reader could easily ascertain the exact dimensions to which a fireball spell actually has its area of effect. Harry Potter having hopping chocolate frogs for the first time is a surprise and a "mystery" and novel.  When Harry gets on his name-brand flying broom to win his 7th straight quidditch match, they have to introduce villains trying to sabotage or otherwise overshadow the proceedings because flying on brooms chasing after a golden ball that only Harry can catch to always win becomes boring and routine. For that matter, Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans where the beans are randomly either caramel corn or vomit-flavored is a really stupid idea outside of the first "sheer novelty" tasting. Even my Harry Potter-obsessed mother and aunt only bought them once before declaring that having a box guaranteed to have flavors like "booger" in it somewhere if you just kept eating every candy in the box was a really stupid idea.

And yes, it's a slider, and I'm sure there are some people who'd enjoy it so that they could "have their fortress explode epically," which might be good for a laugh the first couple times you turn the air into fire and everyone dies for no reason.  I suspect more players are interested in not barbecuing themselves just as they're getting their fort on its feet just for the giggles, and would weld that slider firmly "off".  I'm not sure if it's worth the effort of creating such "chaotic" magic if almost nobody would use it more than once, however.

After all, even when you start talking about it, the only example you give happens to be a "your dwarf dies for no reason" example.  You might as well replicate the effects of this kind of "magic system" by just rolling 1d20 every month, and if you roll a 1, change the raws so that flesh melts at -20 Celcius.  Same basic effect as the "chaotic magic" the occasional person clamors for. 

[Dirst]

I'm sure toady would come up with something anyway, he does that kind of thing. Like he said in the alternate planes df talk about an artifact that slowly brings your fort into the fire dimension,

this is also why we would have a slider. some people, like me, like the concept of a world where magic is rare but dangerous and unpredictable, and some like magic being all over the place and unpredictable, creating a dystopian type world.

There are many fantasy settings with chaotic magic, and toady already has a list of magic effects, so he can just use a random number and grab an effect, I don't care if it is always super usefull or not "you turn into a plant" is just fine , since you chose to have your magic chaotic.

Well, simply saying "Toady will think of something" is at least magical thinking... Again, this isn't a matter of just using some elegant code, I have yet to find anyone who can even conceptually describe a system that produces magic effects that achieve the sorts of ill-described, nebulous effects you tend to find in fantasy fiction.  All they come up with is a Wild Magic Table. It doesn't matter how good a coder Toady is, he can't do the impossible.  Judging by what magic interactions he's done, for that matter, vampires and necromancers are entirely "predictable" magic, while werewhatevers are unpredictable only in that instead of being attacked by a werewolf, you instead get attacked by a weresheep. 

Fantasy novels have the advantage of withholding information from the reader.  Magic effects can be a "surprise" because the reader wasn't clued in to what they do, before, but that effect is rapidly lost when you systemize and make routine that sort of magic interaction.  For that matter, fiction novels don't need to keep a simulation of the exact physical effects a spell has upon every rock in such a way that a reader could easily ascertain the exact dimensions to which a fireball spell actually has its area of effect. Harry Potter having hopping chocolate frogs for the first time is a surprise and a "mystery" and novel.  When Harry gets on his name-brand flying broom to win his 7th straight quidditch match, they have to introduce villains trying to sabotage or otherwise overshadow the proceedings because flying on brooms chasing after a golden ball that only Harry can catch to always win becomes boring and routine. For that matter, Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans where the beans are randomly either caramel corn or vomit-flavored is a really stupid idea outside of the first "sheer novelty" tasting. Even my Harry Potter-obsessed mother and aunt only bought them once before declaring that having a box guaranteed to have flavors like "booger" in it somewhere if you just kept eating every candy in the box was a really stupid idea.

And yes, it's a slider, and I'm sure there are some people who'd enjoy it so that they could "have their fortress explode epically," which might be good for a laugh the first couple times you turn the air into fire and everyone dies for no reason.  I suspect more players are interested in not barbecuing themselves just as they're getting their fort on its feet just for the giggles, and would weld that slider firmly "off".  I'm not sure if it's worth the effort of creating such "chaotic" magic if almost nobody would use it more than once, however.

After all, even when you start talking about it, the only example you give happens to be a "your dwarf dies for no reason" example.  You might as well replicate the effects of this kind of "magic system" by just rolling 1d20 every month, and if you roll a 1, change the raws so that flesh melts at -20 Celcius.  Same basic effect as the "chaotic magic" the occasional person clamors for.

The Lord Darcy series does a good job of making magic seem tameable, but not yet tamed, as if it was a new science.  I especially liked the explanation of why an 'invisibility' spell was infeasible (you're really preventing everyone in the area from looking in your direction... or at any reflective surfaces).

Though I'm not familiar with "the" Wild Magic Table, you can get quite a bit of wild into magic by making the range, scope, duration and power random.  I don't mean the random of a 10d6 damage fireball (which will be somewhere around 35 almost every time), but something that legitimately spans a couple orders of magnitude by operating on a log scale.  Hopefully that Smother Fire spell doesn't run too strong and you shut down every forge in the fort for a while.  Equip each Sphere with its own sliding scale of side-effects (basically "paying for" the random boost), and you have something suitably not industrialized.

Not trying to turn this into the Suggestions thread, just trying to point out that a large enough set of tricks can lead to quite complex behavior in much the same way even the deterministic parts of the raws can lead to unexpected moments in the game.  But coming up with a large set of tricks is quite a lot of work, and it's not really withing the scope of the initial release of the myth generator.

[NW_Kohaku]

The Lord Darcy series does a good job of making magic seem tameable, but not yet tamed, as if it was a new science.  I especially liked the explanation of why an 'invisibility' spell was infeasible (you're really preventing everyone in the area from looking in your direction... or at any reflective surfaces).

I'm not familiar, but that doesn't seem like it would translate into a computer simulation with little by way of established lines of sight, much less mirrors or the concept of reflections...

Though I'm not familiar with "the" Wild Magic Table, you can get quite a bit of wild into magic by making the range, scope, duration and power random.  I don't mean the random of a 10d6 damage fireball (which will be somewhere around 35 almost every time), but something that legitimately spans a couple orders of magnitude by operating on a log scale.  Hopefully that Smother Fire spell doesn't run too strong and you shut down every forge in the fort for a while.  Equip each Sphere with its own sliding scale of side-effects (basically "paying for" the random boost), and you have something suitably not industrialized.

And once again, the example of what "wild magic" means comes down to "it has a 20% chance of killing everyone nearby."  Whenever I ask what "wild magic" means in terms of something that can actually be in a game, it always comes down to "it kills your dwarves if you use it". This isn't complex behavior, it's just a random game over if you're stupid enough to use the system.

Again, DF is fundamentally a game of managed risk. The system of job queues and indirect control means you lose all control of a chaotic situation while it is happening, so DF is all about pre-empting every possible threat with a neurotically elaborate set of contingencies.  Using any sort of "Wild Magic" that can randomly kill your entire fort is pretty much the stupidest thing any player can do outside of open the HFS in year 1 before you've drafted a military. 

Whenever people talk about this sort of magic, it's always either that they want some incredibly vague thing that can only exist in a fiction novel, or they're suggesting something where they think it would be really cool if there were a few more "Press X to crumble my fortress" buttons lying around.

(Incidentally, just Google "Wild Magic Table" - there's one for nearly every major RPG, it's not any one single THE Wild Magic Table.)