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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1880731 times)

ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3900 on: April 04, 2016, 03:22:32 pm »

I'd guess this would be hard to implement, but will players be able to mod/influence site generation? Will there be more kinds of site-types available in the future, for modding if not for vanilla DF?

Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.
I was actually as well if there would eventually be more types of sites - kind of difficult right now to properly have primitive, tribal civs since the only options imply some degree of actual civilization (aside from caves but that doesn't really count). Tent "cities" would be nice.

Also, I've got two other questions - will it eventually be possible to start civilizations instead of merely being extensions of existing ones? And, I remember something being mentioned about martial arts forms being eventually randomly generated just like poetry, dance and music forms - what exactly will that entail and will players be able to create their own moves? For that matter, will these be mostly for flavor or will they appear as actual options in the wrestling menu and have their own unique effects, i.e neck snaps for particularly brutish races or piledrivers targetting the head and causing unconsciousness easily?

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3901 on: April 04, 2016, 03:31:09 pm »

I'd guess this would be hard to implement, but will players be able to mod/influence site generation? Will there be more kinds of site-types available in the future, for modding if not for vanilla DF?

Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.
I was actually as well if there would eventually be more types of sites - kind of difficult right now to properly have primitive, tribal civs since the only options imply some degree of actual civilization (aside from caves but that doesn't really count). Tent "cities" would be nice.

Also, I've got two other questions - will it eventually be possible to start civilizations instead of merely being extensions of existing ones? And, I remember something being mentioned about martial arts forms being eventually randomly generated just like poetry, dance and music forms - what exactly will that entail and will players be able to create their own moves? For that matter, will these be mostly for flavor or will they appear as actual options in the wrestling menu and have their own unique effects, i.e neck snaps for particularly brutish races or piledrivers targetting the head and causing unconsciousness easily?

I am sure they will be usable, toady mentioned it in a df talk
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3902 on: April 04, 2016, 03:53:51 pm »

I'd guess this would be hard to implement, but will players be able to mod/influence site generation? Will there be more kinds of site-types available in the future, for modding if not for vanilla DF?

Just asking from a modding perspective. It would be cool to have a few more types of sites, for more primitive/advanced civilisations for example. Or have hamlets, but no towns etc.

It's something that may eventually happen. Things moving out into the raws is generally a question of having a format and a broad enough idea of what is needed.

Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: darklord92
Will we ever be able to edit the types of buildings that will appear in towns as well as the "dungeons" inside of it, possibly having it external such as a site_dwarf file. or having "plans" built into the game like now but with the buildings customisable in the entity files, such as the options to build towers or not, or to have sewers or not at a certain city value or population
Things tend to move out to the raws as I feel more comfortable with them.  Once I'm done with all of the sites and have more an idea of what I'm dealing with and what I'll be dealing with, we'll probably see more things in there.

...And, I remember something being mentioned about martial arts forms being eventually randomly generated just like poetry, dance and music forms - what exactly will that entail and will players be able to create their own moves? For that matter, will these be mostly for flavor or will they appear as actual options in the wrestling menu and have their own unique effects, i.e neck snaps for particularly brutish races or piledrivers targetting the head and causing unconsciousness easily?

From the Development page, that should answer most of that question I believe:
Quote
Combat flow
  ...
    Notion of stance/guard, with varying bonuses/penalties
    Ability to jump up on and ride opponents if they are large enough (can happen to you too of course)
    Not being able to hit a giant in the head, hitting a dragon in the head as a reaction when it attempts to bite
    Notion of overall wrestling position (who is on top of or controlling whom, etc.)

Combat styles

    Combat styles involving weapons or natural attacks with associated stances and moves
    Ability to learn moves, etc. from others with whom you have a high enough reputation
    Certain moves may only be available as specific counters, while others might just be regular attacks
    Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled
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KillzEmAllGod

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3903 on: April 04, 2016, 06:05:45 pm »

With visitors coming to the fortress will there be bandits and animal people that are armed that might wander into the map only to cross it or vist?
Might get bandits already but they only appear to belong to goblins.

Not seen any monster hunters are they bugged or just so rare that they hardly exist?
Theres groups of bards so when might there be groups of scholars, mercenaries and adventures?
These groups or visitors that are residents living in our fort, being able to go offsite and coming back latter like scholars going elsewhere to meet others is this something to be done under Fortress Starting Scenarios when that deals with this type of stuff more indepth?


With the new myth system will this allow dragons and other megabeasts to be semi random?
When might more weather be added to regions like magical mist and fog that covers the whole region most of the time?
So why did being blind or having a lack of eyes only effect vision range and not being truly blind, though there appears to be sound and other senses?
When was the last time you had a good play through of fort mode if you can remember?

« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 12:50:53 am by KillzEmAllGod »
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3904 on: April 04, 2016, 06:41:02 pm »

Not seen any monster hunters are they bugged or just so rare that they hardly exist?
They do actually exist from what I can tell - it's just, most of them die in worldgen, and living ones are rare - either completely unharmed, or with missing body parts - I've seen people with missing eyes or limbs (once with a missing arm and leg), who according to legends had fought with beasts before, so they definitely exist.

Vattic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3905 on: April 04, 2016, 06:44:49 pm »

I thought that would be like a slider between a mostly flat map with few peaks to a rippled corrugated mess of peaks and valleys for elevation, and a slider between mostly mundane with few exceptions to a writhing coruscating mass of beasts and warlocks for fantasy.

I suspect it will just be a difference between only having what's in the raws, and what's going to be generated by the new myth system.  The game can't figure out what's "mundane" except by what it's told in the raws, and there's no real binding to physical reality when people mod things. 

This seems most likely, but Toady has spoken of being able to turn off magic entirely eventually.

Quote from: Toady One
Well, we've talked a lot about magic in the previous episodes. With dwarves, our sort of baseline idea is all artifact based, and that beyond that it would kind of be slider based, you could go to the no-magic world, or the very minimal magic world, or you could start getting into this kind of factory-based magic that we'd prefer to stay away from for the default setting. I mean it's like D&D magic often seems kind of factory based.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3906 on: April 04, 2016, 07:46:01 pm »

This seems most likely, but Toady has spoken of being able to turn off magic entirely eventually.

Quote from: Toady One
Well, we've talked a lot about magic in the previous episodes. With dwarves, our sort of baseline idea is all artifact based, and that beyond that it would kind of be slider based, you could go to the no-magic world, or the very minimal magic world, or you could start getting into this kind of factory-based magic that we'd prefer to stay away from for the default setting. I mean it's like D&D magic often seems kind of factory based.

That depends on how the game categorizes what gets called "magic", however. Again, if a modder makes a raw-defined reaction to make something out of nothing, the game isn't likely to call a violation of Conservation of Matter.  A "no magic world" might just mean things like secrets, caverns, and syndromes that cause were-curses are turned off, and maybe disable every creature that doesn't have [MUNDANE] in its raws. It all depends upon being able to flag and disable what is the "magic" in the game in some reasonable way, and of course, mods can put all bets off. 

Toady in that quote is specifically talking about how players can harness magic, and how he would prefer to avoid, say, allowing players to mass-produce magic fire swords the way that you can mass-produce masterwork steel and candy swords to the point they become mundane, predictable exercises in equipping your troops with the objectively best gear. So far, his only real way of doing that has been to just keep magic from being directly in Fortress Mode player hands. Magic thus far, however, as evidenced by necromancers and turning into an undead in Adventurer Mode, really is just as routine as he'd hoped to avoid.  If you are a necromancer, it's just a matter of finding good corpses to raise, and you can do so for free. For that matter, Loud Whisper's Silentthunders (spoilers), where necromancers are imprisoned and forced to make undead armies as weapons in the service of the dwarves just proves you can still use that magic indirectly with some clever engineering.

The problem is that he wants there to be, as you put it in that Suggestion Forum thread yesterday, "mystery" associated with magic, but faces severe structural challenges from the very nature of this being a formal, Turing-complete ruleset videogame that make keeping magic a "mystery" a virtual impossibility. For elaboration on reasons why, I'd point to Errant Signal's video on why so many games use violence as their central topic.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3907 on: April 04, 2016, 07:48:56 pm »

Hi Toady, I can see building a world directly from the raws, and going full Gray Goo with procedural generation... but I am interested in the settings in between.  Do you envision the player being able to give any direction to the randomness, in essence increasing the scope of advanced world generation?  Or will it start out as just an increasing fraction of the raw content being replaced by generated content?

I'm also curious from where the generated content comes.  Is it a shuffled form of the raws?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3908 on: April 04, 2016, 07:58:14 pm »

I would be so happy if I could create discworld....
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3909 on: April 05, 2016, 07:44:25 am »

Among those quality of life issues are you considering standing orders? Kind of like always having 10 tables on stock, or having x amount of meals/drinks?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3910 on: April 05, 2016, 08:15:31 am »

Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 10:14:15 am by decev »
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3911 on: April 05, 2016, 08:16:24 am »

Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3912 on: April 05, 2016, 08:57:20 am »

Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?

From what I understand the answer is not yet. As of right now, the only difference is whether it's true or not.

If you meant later, when it's more granular, idk.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3913 on: April 05, 2016, 10:38:35 am »

Will the player be able to read a creation story with 100% fantasy and one with 0% fantasy and be able to tell which is which?

From what I understand the answer is not yet. As of right now, the only difference is whether it's true or not.

If you meant later, when it's more granular, idk.


Are you sure about that?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3914 on: April 05, 2016, 11:54:44 am »

Well, from the recent screenshots in the PC Gamer interview, the 0% myths are the one with dwarves, and the 100% ones are the ones with uzi creatures. ;) (I'm thinking that the amount of raws replaced by procedurally generated content should probably be a different slider from the fantasy parameter, assuming things do work that way. At least in advanced world generation.)
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