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Poll

How sad are you that a simple issue can bring out the worst in people?

It makes me sad. So very very sad.
- 58 (49.6%)
I think it's great!
- 26 (22.2%)
I'm indifferent.
- 33 (28.2%)

Total Members Voted: 115


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Author Topic: 2014: Equal rights  (Read 54075 times)

JonathanCR

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2014, 01:00:26 am »

It also doesn't make a vast amount of sense for dwarf culture - which so far has been established as fairly conservative.

The dwarves live in a socialist utopia where, apart from a personal cupboard containing spare socks and a bare, mattressless bed, they share all possessions in common. (Their health service is pretty poor though.)  I don't think that modern western political categories really apply to them. And why should they?

I think that dwarf culture is "conservative" in the sense that it doesn't change much, if at all; but their values are not the same as ours. These are people whose idea of a great day is to walk back and forth under a waterfall.

It would be nice if this is a change that's been deliberately sneaked in under the radar. I think it would only be a problem, from a dwarf breeding point of view, if all dwarves turned out to be bisexual and just as likely to choose a same-sex partner as not. If, on the other hand, they're no more likely to do so than human beings are, then it wouldn't have a great impact on dwaarven child-rearing projects.
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samanato

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2014, 01:09:17 am »

The dwarves live in a socialist utopia where, apart from a personal cupboard containing spare socks and a bare, mattressless bed, they share all possessions in common.

To be fair, that's the result of the dwarven economy being so unspeakably broken it had to be thrown in the bin.
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Numeroid

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2014, 01:12:45 am »

The dwarves live in a socialist utopia where, apart from a personal cupboard containing spare socks and a bare, mattressless bed, they share all possessions in common.

To be fair, that's the result of the dwarven economy being so unspeakably broken it had to be thrown in the bin.

Agreed. Dwarves love having stuff. They'll take pretty much as many possessions as you'll allow them.
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Dyret

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2014, 01:17:16 am »

I don't see any cultural reason why dwarves would be opposed to that kind of thing, unless they worship a god of pregnancy or something, I suppose. It's kind of a useless discussion until culture, religion and personality is fleshed out more, though.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2014, 01:58:34 am »

I don't see any cultural reason why dwarves would be opposed to that kind of thing, unless they worship a god of pregnancy or something, I suppose. It's kind of a useless discussion until culture, religion and personality is fleshed out more, though.
+1

My "conservative" comment doesn't really make any sense, either. Please disregard it.
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RealFear

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2014, 02:34:40 am »

Actually, it'd be interesting to see a small amount of minor ethics be randomly generated for each Civ's (or maybe even race/world's) acceptances of certain things, such as gay marriage.
It could be perfectly acceptable in one place, and treated as a crime in another, as would so other minor ethics.
It would actually be interesting to see a world where basically every Civ/race decided to be uptight on gay marriage, so you'd only see it in bandit camps.

Hell, In fact, you could just make it so that every Civ takes all of their races normal stance on ethics, and then randomly gets small bonus or reduction to it's acceptance, which might lead to accepting things that might have been considered iffy before, and vice versa.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 02:36:50 am by RealFear »
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llasram

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2014, 02:44:41 am »

I had the Queen show up after a year(I only have 16 dwarfs,) and guess what gender her lover is? yup, her lover is also a female.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I honestly think its pretty neat that this exists, even if it is a bug.
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Blastbeard

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2014, 02:46:53 am »


If a gay couple in worldgen had a child, that would make it a bug, and unless this is intentional, it's entirely possible that weird behaviors along those lines would occur.

No, that wouldn't be a bug, that would be a horrid little thing called fan fiction.
It is terrifying.

As for the impact on breeding and population, I don't really see a problem. The really important things(attributes) aren't hereditary so far as I can tell, so we're not losing anything of value to a same-sex marriage. Besides, let's be honest, no amount of homosexuality is going to come anywhere near doing the damage to a population that the average player can pull off without even trying. This might be one bug we can safely ignore for the moment.

However, if we get an interspecies couple of a dwarf and elf, as reported here, then we have a problem.
It is terrifying.
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Melting Sky

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2014, 04:00:56 am »

Hmmm, interesting. I think the best way to tell if its intentional or not would be to look through the raws. You would think there would be some sort of sexual orientation tag with a probability spread on it or something like that somewhere in the creature or entity raws if it was an intentional mechanic. Then again it could be hard-coded but I think it would be a good place to start sleuthing.
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forgetaboutit

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2014, 04:13:47 am »

'Gay marriage' would be a cool feature. I don't see why people shouldn't be able to have an inclusive game in 2014. I myself will enjoy locking them jail for torture immensely.
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WillowLuman

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2014, 04:17:05 am »

There are new [ORIENTATION] tags, as revealed by the string dump, whose effects need testing. They seem to have something to do with spouse converting night creatures, but again, science is lacking so far.
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Blastbeard

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2014, 04:18:31 am »

There's actually an advantage to this. If a femdwarf is married to another femdwarf, they can be enlisted without having to worry about them carrying infants into battle.

Only in Dwarf Fortress would anyone consider the greatest asset of homosexuality to be the reduced chance of infants getting involved in warfare.
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AMTiger

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2014, 04:21:48 am »

Given how hard and slow breeding dwarves is already, it's hardly 'happy'
 On worlds with no surviving dwarf civilisations, so no migrants, but lots of lovely reclaimable fortresses, it'd pretty much mean no game if you dwarfs didn't couple up in breeding pairs. You need alot of luck to get couples as it is without adding in the chance they'd couple the wrong way.
It also doesn't make a vast amount of sense for dwarf culture - which so far has been established as fairly conservative.

Is it really though? As far as I can tell there's already pretty much perfect gender equality. All jobs are doable by both sexes with no difference inherently in quality (of course), and as far as I can tell there aren't even masculine and feminine distinctions in names. I mean, this isn't directly related to same sex marriage in dwarf culture but it's just an example of an area where there isn't any discrimination or social rules like that.

(Really hoping this thread doesn't get super political, I'm just talking about the game)

 All of which heavily implies that dwarf society has no concept of gender identity. Which would put offspring as the function of marriage.
 same sex marriage is a concept of social rules about what genders are and what each gender does, Homophobia and gay marriage would both be incomprehensible to a culture which didn't even have a concept of gender roles and sexual identity.

 Conservative/Liberal doesn't come into it, those are temporary, I like the status quo v I want to change the status quo. Whats conservative in japan would be in england, why would what is in america be in a mythic age dwarf society?
 What do we know about dwarf society? it's that duty to the many outweighs personal desire, except for nobles who are fishheads when it comes to mandates. But even that shows that your role is to serve the fort not be fulfilled. I.e. It's more reasonable to assume that dwarfs would see marriage as medieval and ancient people would, as a compact to fulfil the duty to have and raise children, not as the modern west does as a personal ambition or legal contract. Dwarf Fortresses, especially in dead-civ worlds (where this is a vital issue as breeding is the ONLY way to get new dwarfs) putting sexual predisposition ahead of duty would get you as heavily thumped as it would have in the dark ages.
 It's not like dwarfs are so resilient that increasing the population wouldn't be a political concern. Even the whole focus of the game is go out and increase the dwarf civilisation by establishing new settlements. And yet they'd have the entirely modern attitudes towards reproduction as to see marriage in such a way as to make gay marriage conceivable, and yet NOT have modern attitudes towards the same as to make it so unmarried dwarfs could happily have kids no problem?

 And to gain what? 'inclusiveness' as forgetaboutit says. To throw aside any consideration for the setting to shove in allegorical modern politics? To go, aha, it's 2014 therefore all games must be set in 2014 in our society with our views, bugger immersion, because it's tolerant to suggest locking up anyone who doesn't share a single narrow view, but intolerant to suppose that conditions and objective reason be applied. It's not inclusive to demand that all things reflect one set of views and one set of values, that's pretty much the exact definition of exclusive.
 To deny simulation to shove in allegory is excluding all other possibilities for the same of one. That's not inclusion, to include one more would be inclusion, not to replace all others with one.

 But really and back to the main problem which is mechanics, it screws the viability of generation forts and eugenics. It's a bug and it shouldn't be a feature.
 If dwarfs are as likely to link up in non-reproducing matches as they are otherwise, then worlds where the dwarf civs died out will just be unplayable.

 If it's restricted by rare tags, maybe, it's just the game can't tell the difference when it comes to associated romances, which is what the cross-species trouble seems to heavily suggest is causing this, then it's not only a bug, but a devastating one.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 04:25:08 am by AMTiger »
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Melting Sky

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2014, 04:30:13 am »

So there are actually tags then. I would love to see where they are and how they are used. Context should be able to clarify if it is a bug or not.
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AMTiger

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Re: 2014: Equal rights
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2014, 04:34:31 am »

So there are actually tags then. I would love to see where they are and how they are used. Context should be able to clarify if it is a bug or not.

 Elfs and Humans are getting married too, which suggests it's just that the game has forgotten to check first, just grabs two characters and bam.
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