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[Alev]

-snippity snap-

Yes, I can't argue with that. The current artificial variety of stones and plants I personally like, even if they aren't very different.

[Scruiser]

-snippity snap-

Yes, I can't argue with that. The current artificial variety of stones and plants I personally like, even if they aren't very different.

I personally also like variety, with one caveat... when you are scrolling through an overly long list at the smelter it it kind of annoying.  Same for scrolling through a list of cuts at the jewelers.  Before any more long lists of varieties of things are added, there needs to be some work done in presentation.  So for example at the smelter and forge, the alloys would be classified by "Armor Alloys" "Weapon Alloys" "Decorative Alloys" "High Value Alloys" etc. Ideally these categories would be entirely defined in the raws, so mods and such could create or delete categories as needed.  One thing should be allowable for multiple categories, example Steel would be a "Weapon Alloy", "Armor Alloy" and a "High Value Alloy".  Even better if, when giving manager orders or selecting jobs, you could select by high level category instead of by specific thing.  So you assign "20 Weapon Alloy Swords", etc.

Anywho, that said, on topic: Adding a bunch of redundant junk that doesn't add gameplay isn't necessarily actively HARMFUL to the game (although it is a little bit, from confusion and a bit more lag), it's more of an issue of "not spending valuable time on stuff that doesn't really add anything for hardly anybody." Which is the case for a bunch of these suggestions. The costs involved are opportunity costs.

A bunch of other ones DO add gameplay value though, for sure. It's a mixed bag, like most suggestion lists, including my own.

I think categorization would make it more manageable for new players and cut down on confusion.  As for the opportunity cost, I don't think adding in a long list of stuff takes as much time as making the framework for it in the first place.  Like Toady probably spent more work coming up with the overall tree system and code and way the RAWs for trees work compared with actually writing the tree RAWs.

[GavJ]

I don't think adding in a long list of stuff takes as much time as making the framework for it in the first place.

Playtesting, not the literal adding of the lists.

And then your subsequent argument seems to essentially be "well you don't have to worry much about whether people actually want it or if rebalancing is needed, because you can simply go in and change the raws as a modder" But this is a very odd argument, since of course you can ALSO just add these things as a modder in the first place.

It doesn't make sense to have a bunch of untested, unbalanced, un-honed lists of junk in the game under the assumption that modders will fix it, because if you're forced to invoke modders to make the idea work, it would clearly be more efficient to just have the modders do it to begin with correctly the first time.

On the other hand, if the content IS well balanced and tested by Toady, then it is soaking up a lot of his time in doing the aforementioned playtesting.

Sort of a lose-lose choice. Either a waste of time, if you need modders to fix it anyway, or a different type of waste of time, if Toady sinks a bunch of effort into balancing stuff within existing frameworks versus making new frameworks.






Yes, Toady providing new frameworks is fine. Great, in fact. But most of the suggestions I was objecting to were not about frameworks. They were about lists of semi or entirely redundant junk that are already possible to mod in. Including subsets/aspects of metals, glazes, new fluxes, peat ceramics (just make peat a clay in the raws and add a new ceramic)...

[Scruiser]

I don't think adding in a long list of stuff takes as much time as making the framework for it in the first place.

Playtesting, not the literal adding of the lists.

I don't think playtesting stuff that mostly uses existing frameworks and has parameters close to existing parameters really takes any time at all.

And then your subsequent argument seems to essentially be "well you don't have to worry much about whether people actually want it or if rebalancing is needed, because you can simply go in and change the raws as a modder" But this is a very odd argument, since of course you can ALSO just add these things as a modder in the first place.

Actually I just want modding on every new feature to get the most play-ability out of it (in the case of my example, better categorization of options in workshops).  Also, if I think something is good enough, I would prefer it in the default game.

It doesn't make sense to have a bunch of untested, unbalanced, un-honed lists of junk in the game under the assumption that modders will fix it, because if you're forced to invoke modders to make the idea work, it would clearly be more efficient to just have the modders do it to begin with correctly the first time.

I don't think there is alot to "hone" or "balance" with more metals for example.  As long as the parameters are from the real world values and are within the same range as existing metals they should be fine.  Cupronickel, for example is not any better than steel, so it won't break game balance that way, and it provides an alternative when neither cassierite for tin or flux stone are available on map.

Glaze Colors:
Black - (cobaltite and iron), (iron and fuel)
Navy - cobaltite
Blue - rutile, tin, (cobaltite and feldspar)
Cyan D - (copper + ash), iron, chromite, tin
Cyan L - ash, tin, chromite, (iron + feldspar)
Green D - iron, garnierite, chromite
Green L - copper, chromite, ash, (iron + flux)
Ruby - (chromite and lead), (feldspar and copper)
Red - copper, iron, pitchblende
Purple - (pyrolusite and ash)  -- purples and magentas MIGHT also be possible with generic ultramafic rocks (dunite, etc. There actually aren't many in-game. Hornblende is one. Presumably "semi-molten rock" stands in for ultramafics, and below that, there is HFS instead of a normal mantle) + cobalt glazes.  NOT celadon-type blues, though.
Magenta - pyrolusite
Brown - (chromite + zinc), iron, rutile, lead
Yellow - (chromite), (iron + talc), iron + flux
Gray - garnierite, (iron + fuel)
L. Gray - iron or rutile
White - feldspar

I like this kind of variety the best.  It lets you make use of more kinds of stone, provides an ascetic color change when you are in an obsessive compulsive mood, and it is realistic/simulationist.
Checks post author... we aren't really disagreeing if you think these are good ideas.  I don't like totally meaningless variety, but as long as there is a slight gameplay difference (one more use for a type of stone, one more alloy to make up for metal availability, etc), and it is realistic, I think it should be in.

[GavJ]

I don't think there is alot to "hone" or "balance" with more metals for example.

?? Sure there are. There's a ton of stuff to balance!

Too many things near steel in power for example, even if individually reasonable = Much less of a need to care about your embark location = less challenge, less variety, fewer relevant strategies as alternatives to a simple well armed military, etc. etc.

"Provides an alternative when neither cassiterite nor flux stone are available on the map" is precisely WHY it requires balancing... More alternatives are easier and blander and thus need to be balanced... For example, by carefully tweaking mineral amounts to offset it, or maybe making them not so similar in strength, or changing relative effort of smithing or mining, etc. etc.

Same goes for boiled leather, for example. Having renewable equivalents near effectiveness of, say, copper, waters down the game and requires appropriate balancing to make reasonable drawbacks so it's still actually interesting and some sort of a choice or sacrifice. It could totally work, but would probably need to require you to gather actual water and fuel and chemicals or something to make it sufficiently balanced, and the ratios of all the efforts and resources would need lots of testing.

More types of glazes isn't a balancing issue by itself right now, but that's only because large rock pots happen to be unbalanced/brokenly easy already. If those weren't overly easy and abundant and superior in every way, then glaze would actually matter for liquid sealing, and adding more glaze alternatives would need to be appropriately balanced. Ignoring that now simply means that if/when rock pots are balanced, you'll lead to imbalanced glazes waiting for you down the line since you didn't address it originally, etc.

Everything and it's brother being flux means that flux doesn't matter as much anymore, as it becomes closer to being just a given. Granted, borax wouldn't be a big deal, since it is sedimentary and thus not a big change. (although I do think it isn't actually more realistic). But that's still something you need to stop and consider, and if it were something more like marble that increased ease of flux access, it would require lots of balancing.




I'm not saying any of these things wouldn't be fun. I'm just saying its a job more efficiently left to modders, moreso than Toady. Unless there's a pressing need in the game for something, which I don't think there is for any of these things.  At the very least not in alpha development.

[Scruiser]

    I don't think the current "balance" is a result of a huge intentional effort by Toady, much less any honing.  The alloys that are currently in are some of the more common alloys used by ancient and medieval cultures.  Their parameters come from real world data.  The scarcity of metals was the only thing adjusted, at that was because the ultra common metals of v0.31.25- v0.34.xx (can't remember exact version that changed it) was both unrealistic and too easy.  Adding more alloys and more alternatives to metal (hard boiled leather, laminated materials for armors and better crossbows, stone clubs, etc.) simply requires adjusting the default "mineral scarcity" parameter to keep the overall balance the same for alloys.
    I am not saying Toady ignores or should ignore the game aspect, but it seems to me that the simulation/realism approach has generated good enough game play.  With hard boiled leather, for example, Toady wouldn't just slap on an extra reaction to the tanners shop, he would research the basics of the process.  It would require fuel (making it comparable to metal in resources required), water (requiring water source), and possibly wax (requiring bee keeping industry) or oil (requiring plant processing).  Tanning would probably be modified to require some additional chemicals with the alternative of making lower value, weaker leather without chemicals.  Just by taking a realistic approach to it, more industries are required, and the difficultly level goes up.  I think a lot of the balance cases you are pointing to solve themselves if realism is used to implement them.

[GavJ]

I don't think the current "balance" is a result of a huge intentional effort by Toady, much less any honing.

... Yes that is fairly evidence from the fact that the game isn't particularly well balanced right now.  Steel/candy = unstoppable tank, other stuff is fairly useless, etc.

Notice that I laid out two scenarios: 1) Not spending time balancing, in which case what's the point of adding more stuff if it's gonna be broken right off the ba? Let modders do that. 2) Balance things nicely, but doing so requiring time that could be better spent doing things that only Toady could do.

Currently, the game mostly represents scenario #1. Which doesn't bother me too much, because Toady needs to add SOME basic stuff to make it roughly playable as vanilla for bug fixing, etc. But that's all we need in vanilla for now: some basic functional stuff. Beyond that, more fluff isn't efficient, or if I were Toady, even particularly interesting versus core mechanics.

[Nopenope]

I think the main reason Toady does not bother balancing out stuff right now is because there's more stuff to add that would break any existing balance. Also, DF aims at realism, and reality is sadly broken and unbalanced. Samurais didn't complain to Japan devs when the Portuguese came up with their guns, after all.

[Scruiser]

I think the main reason Toady does not bother balancing out stuff right now is because there's more stuff to add that would break any existing balance.

Yeah I would really hate to see armor and its materials get super well balanced playability wise only for boiled leather or slightly stronger alloys or scale armor to completely break that balance.  I think it would make more sense to get in all the related components before Toady spends a huge amount of time trying to fine tune the balance. 

Notice that I laid out two scenarios: 1) Not spending time balancing, in which case what's the point of adding more stuff if it's gonna be broken right off the ba? Let modders do that. 2) Balance things nicely, but doing so requiring time that could be better spent doing things that only Toady could do.

Currently, the game mostly represents scenario #1. Which doesn't bother me too much, because Toady needs to add SOME basic stuff to make it roughly playable as vanilla for bug fixing, etc. But that's all we need in vanilla for now: some basic functional stuff. Beyond that, more fluff isn't efficient, or if I were Toady, even particularly interesting versus core mechanics.

I think we mostly agree.  Most of the fluff Toady adds uses the same core mechanics and thus should have been trivial to add.  Its the core mechanics that lets the fluff get differentiated meaningfully.  I think we just value the fluff at slightly different levels and have slightly different estimates of the time Toady spends on a given quantity of fluff.

[GavJ]

"Throw in everything AND balance it when you're done" is fine for normal games.  Ain't gonna fly for dwarf fortress, you need to balance it as you go, or not put in too much stuff that you can't balance.

Why? Because Toady getting funding relies on this being a fun game during its alpha, and nobody would stick around for the next 15-20 years if it's an unbalanced wreck of a game all the way until it's done.

It's not a huge deal. There are two good solutions IMO, neither of which should be that painful:
1) Add more stuff but also put more things in the RAWs now, not later (my preferred route) so that people can do a better job balancing things themselves in the meantime, then don't worry about it. There are lots of things in the raws, but also lots of things not. For example, job priorities are not in right now, which are a major frustrating balancing thing, and are just a list of numbers that easily could be in the raws.  Stuff like that, patch up the holes.
2) Don't put in any more than a bare minimum of redundant feature clutter until later, after all the major frameworks features are done. Until then, only include the smallest amount that's reasonably fun and then balance that manually and move on.

[Nopenope]

nobody would stick around for the next 15-20 years if it's an unbalanced wreck of a game all the way until it's done

It's been an unbalanced (and in its early days, unreleased) wreck of a game for the 12 first years of its life and I don't see anyone going anywhere.