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[Avis-Mergulus]

Aye, and the Armenian genocide is the subject of a decades-long shitstorm between Turkey and everybody else. Though maybe I know about it because there is a lot of Armenians here and Armenia is mostly well-liked. But I've known that happened since I was 14-ish.

[KingofstarrySkies]

Dude, I've done pillow talk about unit 731. They're not that unknown.

Helgo, you're a weird sonofagun.

[Flying Dice]

They might get glossed over in 'Murrican education. IDK, since I had a prof who specialized in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and assorted other atrocities.

[Akura]

I would say that, yeah, American education does gloss it over. A lot.

[TempAcc]

Yep, my NA friends always tell me they had no idea of the armenian genocide, the rape of nanking/japanese wartime atrocities in general, the genocide of the don cossacks by the bolsheviks and the holodomor caused by the soviet union, not to mention the millions upon millions of people killed by mao's rule in China, specially during the "great leap forward".

I also roll my eyes whenever people say that WW2 was the deadliest conflict in the history of the world EVER, or that hitler invented fascism.

[a1s]

And, of course, that's the recent stuff. Genghis Khan routinely put cities to the sword for making him siege them (the stores of organizing murder queues and constructing skull mountains go so deep into the horrific they become fascinating again). And everyone raped back then (that's 13th century, for you chemists in the audience). Mongol, Muslim, Christian, Slav it didn't matter- every time a war host took a city, rape and pillage would result.

[Avis-Mergulus]

Yep, my NA friends always tell me they had no idea of the armenian genocide, the rape of nanking/japanese wartime atrocities in general, the genocide of the don cossacks by the bolsheviks and the holodomor caused by the soviet union, not to mention the millions upon millions of people killed by mao's rule in China, specially during the "great leap forward".

I also roll my eyes whenever people say that WW2 was the deadliest conflict in the history of the world EVER, or that hitler invented fascism.

This might be a slightly flameworthy topic, but the classification of Cossacks as an ethnic group is subject to debate, and a lot of people will tell you they're a military caste or class. I have never figured out in my head what makes an ethnos, so I am just leaving this here while stating that I have no opinion on the matter.

This is a definitely very flameworthy topic, but the hunger of 1932-33 also affected Kazakhstan, the northern Caucasus, the Volga region, and generally killed tons of people of various ethnicities because the collectivization policy was fucked up. It was definitely a crime against humanity and a mass murder on a statewide scale, but saying only Ukrainians suffered from it is nearly as bad as saying nobody died at all as far as all the other victims are concerned.

I have a slight feeling that in modern terms, the equation "a lot of people were killed = genocide" is always applied despite the fact that the word "genocide" has a concrete meaning. I mean, not every crime against humanity is a genocide, is it?

Again, due to the flameworthiness of the topic, I state that I am unsure about the meaning of the word "genocide" as it is currently used, not about whether all these atrocities happened. They did.

If I should drop this topic, tell me and I'll say no more.

[TempAcc]

Nah, its ok, I only mentioned the ukranians because I didn't know the full span of the nations affected by it. I learned of the holodomor through Russian and Ukrainian sources.

On the cossacks, while their status as a nation is often put into question (mostly due to the fact that nobody bothered to study them before they became relevant in major conflicts), cossacks have, you know, actual culture, with folklore, myths and customs, and were very much a significant nation during and before the times of the polish commonwealth. It is true, however, that the people we know today as "cossacks" were actualy made out of several different east slavic peoples that became more united during the second millenium AD, and were often exploited as serfs, who ran away and joined up, creating armed groups.

We just have very few records of cossacks before the 16th century, probably because nobody actualy cared to take note of them until they got their hands on firearms and started fighting the stablished powers of the time. This is mostly why they're always referenced by russian and ukranian sources as "warriors" and "men of adventure".

Genocide is the intentional and systematic destruction of national, political, cultural or racial groups, regardless of the reason or the method used. While the deliberate nature of the holodomor is often questioned, everyone pretty much agrees that Stalin was willing to industrialize the soviet union at any cost, and it wouldn't be the fist time the soviet union would cause the deaths of huge numbers of people for the sake of creating a completely united political entity under the communist party's control.

Altough ye, this thread might not be the best place to talk about this :v

[Eric Blank]

Personally, I find it hilarious that we're having a serious discussion about genocide, warfare or politics in general in a thread reserved for non-terrible comedy.

[TempAcc]

It was inevitable

[Arx]

Y'know, sometimes reading the comments is worthwhile:

xXMlG_L3GiT_qUicKsc0p3s_SW4GY0L0_G3TR3KT_f4z3x0pt1c_dontlikecod=gay_420_g2gfast_2spooky4u_ayylmaoXx

[Flying Dice]

Yep, my NA friends always tell me they had no idea of the armenian genocide, the rape of nanking/japanese wartime atrocities in general, the genocide of the don cossacks by the bolsheviks and the holodomor caused by the soviet union, not to mention the millions upon millions of people killed by mao's rule in China, specially during the "great leap forward".

I also roll my eyes whenever people say that WW2 was the deadliest conflict in the history of the world EVER, or that hitler invented fascism.

This might be a slightly flameworthy topic, but the classification of Cossacks as an ethnic group is subject to debate, and a lot of people will tell you they're a military caste or class. I have never figured out in my head what makes an ethnos, so I am just leaving this here while stating that I have no opinion on the matter.

This is a definitely very flameworthy topic, but the hunger of 1932-33 also affected Kazakhstan, the northern Caucasus, the Volga region, and generally killed tons of people of various ethnicities because the collectivization policy was fucked up. It was definitely a crime against humanity and a mass murder on a statewide scale, but saying only Ukrainians suffered from it is nearly as bad as saying nobody died at all as far as all the other victims are concerned.

I have a slight feeling that in modern terms, the equation "a lot of people were killed = genocide" is always applied despite the fact that the word "genocide" has a concrete meaning. I mean, not every crime against humanity is a genocide, is it?

Again, due to the flameworthiness of the topic, I state that I am unsure about the meaning of the word "genocide" as it is currently used, not about whether all these atrocities happened. They did.

If I should drop this topic, tell me and I'll say no more.

Nah, it's been subjected to the same watering down of meaning that's ruined countless other words because people are ignorant and descriptivists defend their ignorance. That said, it is relatively broad to begin with; there are a number of different nuances to it which vary depending on the speaker.

[Avis-Mergulus]

On the cossacks, while their status as a nation is often put into question (mostly due to the fact that nobody bothered to study them before they became relevant in major conflicts), cossacks have, you know, actual culture, with folklore, myths and customs, and were very much a significant nation during and before the times of the polish commonwealth. It is true, however, that the people we know today as "cossacks" were actualy made out of several different east slavic peoples that became more united during the second millenium AD, and were often exploited as serfs, who ran away and joined up, creating armed groups.

We just have very few records of cossacks before the 16th century, probably because nobody actualy cared to take note of them until they got their hands on firearms and started fighting the stablished powers of the time. This is mostly why they're always referenced by russian and ukranian sources as "warriors" and "men of adventure".

By your definition, the Soviet policies toward the Cossacks do qualify as genocide, yes.

Still, the matter of "Cossack ethnicity" always fascinated me. For example, consider the Don Cossacks (of Eastern Ukraine - Southern Russia) and the Terek Cossacks (of the Caucasus). They have rather different traditions and lore (though to what extent, I can't rightly say). Are they subsets of a single ethnicity or two different ethnicities? If they're subsets, is "Cossack" itself a subset of Eastern Slavic? But Terek Cossacks could be not Slavic at all, but, for ex. Adyghe or something. Does that mean that Don Cossacks are a subset of both Cossacks and Eastern Slavs, while Terek Cossacks are a subset of Cossacks but not necessarily a subset of Eastern Slavs? In my head, it's an unnecessarily - complicated Eiler diagram with a shitton of intersecting circles.

Things like this are probably why if people ask me about my ethnicity, I always answer with a term equivalent to "a citizen of Russia". Saves headaches.

Nah, it's been subjected to the same watering down of meaning that's ruined countless other words because people are ignorant and descriptivists defend their ignorance. That said, it is relatively broad to begin with; there are a number of different nuances to it which vary depending on the speaker.

That is close to my opinion, except in less harsh terms. It's very... political.

[Arx]

The outtakes from the Worldbuilders' fundraiser.

It's basically half Patrick Rothfuss being a doofus, and the other half the other Worldbuilders people being doofuses.

[a1s]

Genocide is the intentional and systematic destruction of national, political, cultural or racial groups, regardless of the reason or the method used. While the deliberate nature of the holodomor is often questioned, everyone pretty much agrees that Stalin was willing to industrialize the soviet union at any cost, and it wouldn't be the fist time the soviet union would cause the deaths of huge numbers of people for the sake of creating a completely united political entity under the communist party's control.

The argument against it being genocide goes that it wasn't intentional, nor was it directed against cultural group (although arguably it did target a socio-economic group - the peasant class.) Both of these topics are hotly disputed.

Spoiler: my personal opinion on the subject, which is uninformed. Acknowledge this fact before you read. (click to show/hide)

 I don't really think the Soviet Politbureau had the administrative capacity to conduct a campaign of starving out the rural middle class as they are ascribed to doing in this case. They did very few things with any precision.
Nor would they mascarade a purge as a famine. Soviets didn't particularly hide the purges, heck they were almost proud - anyone who wasn't with the revolutionary, progressive and wise soviet rule was (had to be) a paid counterrevolutionary spy or else a locally bred reactionary. Either way they had to be separated from society (and their property) and given the chance to "pay"- their transgression-"back in blood". In contrast, the Soviet elites regarded Holodomor (and the whole famine) as a shameful secret to be kept under wraps. Even 20 years later, during de-stalinisation, this was still swept under the rug as a socialist failure, rather than touted as another deed of the Bloodthirsty Georgian.