Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[QuakeIV]

I fully support the idea that her autonomy should be respected.  You have presumably made your input, and unless she is about to do something unutterably horrible she should probably be allowed to do whatever.  From a moral perspective, that is.  If you don't really care and want her to stop anyways then you could potentially get ammunition from this thread, even if you cannot reveal the specific situation for some reason.  As far as that goes though you would probably be wasting our time, because vector is clearly stingy and most of us aren't that good at putting together instructions to manipulate in the general sense I mentioned earlier.

Spoiler:  side note (click to show/hide)

It's also very common in domestic abuse cases; the abuser tries to distance the abused from external support groups to ensure they stay the center of attention and support in the abused's life. Which is why domestic abuse is often long-lasting and recurring; because the abused has been cut off from support from anyone else for the duration of the abusive relationship.

This is precisely the reason why people here are extremely reticent to give advice to do so.

Most known atrocities are also comitted by creatures that breathe oxygen. I disagree with your causation here, is the point.  It isn't always evil to sever support for a given behavior if you ask me, its just another tool that is unfortunately flexible in its application. 

e: in italics

[alway]

Spoiler:  side note (click to show/hide)

It's also very common in domestic abuse cases; the abuser tries to distance the abused from external support groups to ensure they stay the center of attention and support in the abused's life. Which is why domestic abuse is often long-lasting and recurring; because the abused has been cut off from support from anyone else for the duration of the abusive relationship.

This is precisely the reason why people here are extremely reticent to give advice to do so.

Most known atrocities are also comitted by creatures that breathe oxygen. I disagree with your causation here, is the point.  It isn't always evil to sever support for a given behavior if you ask me, its just another tool that is unfortunately flexible in its application. 

e: in italics

Harm vs benefits makes that a false equivalence. Best case scenario? OP manipulates someone out of some benign group he doesn't like. Worst case scenario? Unreliable narrator, and OP is looking for advice in manipulating someone into a potentially abusive relationship.

OP has already stated the group is more benign than Satanism (which is pretty benign to begin with; they really don't do much despite what all the moral panics about it claim). If I had to guess the group in question was some other alternative religion (New Age, Wicca, or something of that sort) (reasoning: OP mentioned "this sort of thing" implying it's a similar category as Satanism, OP's GF just came from an alternative religion, and they all tend to share demographics to some extent) . In which case, trying to manipulate someone out of it would be immoral, and more to the point, doomed to failure from the beginning.

To be brutally honest, OP has made it very clear that he does not respect this person's autonomy, their ability to make decisions for themselves, or their past decisions. You need to look no further than the first post's note to see this. "Quitting is not an option." Followed by a veiled admission that the issue has been pushed many times and rebuffed by this person... And that this fact is utterly unacceptable to OP. Or in short, OP doesn't respect this person as a person. When that is the general impression given off, there is no way helping that person be manipulative is a good idea.

[XXSockXX]

OP has already stated the group is more benign than Satanism (which is pretty benign to begin with; they really don't do much despite what all the moral panics about it claim). If I had to guess the group in question was some other alternative religion (New Age, Wicca, or something of that sort) (reasoning: OP mentioned "this sort of thing" implying it's a similar category as Satanism, OP's GF just came from an alternative religion, and they all tend to share demographics to some extent) . In which case, trying to manipulate someone out of it would be immoral, and more to the point, doomed to failure from the beginning.

Actually considering how vague the OP is, it's not even clear we're even talking about Satanism (which I agree is pretty benign in my experience) or any (pseudo-)religious group, it might as well just be some goth kids or another harmless youth subculture. (OP's remark that hedonism isn't a fulfilling lifestyle threw me off there.)

If we assume the best, OP is trying to get his girlfriend out of what he thinks of as (but not necessarily is) bad company. If we assume the worst, which we maybe shouldn't because it's kinda harsh, OP is asking how to separate her from her friends.

[QuakeIV]

significant amounts of stuff

 In which case, trying to manipulate someone out of it would be immoral, and more to the point, doomed to failure from the beginning.

To be brutally honest, OP has made it very clear that he does not respect this person's autonomy, their ability to make decisions for themselves, or their past decisions. You need to look no further than the first post's note to see this. "Quitting is not an option." Followed by a veiled admission that the issue has been pushed many times and rebuffed by this person... And that this fact is utterly unacceptable to OP. Or in short, OP doesn't respect this person as a person. When that is the general impression given off, there is no way helping that person be manipulative is a good idea.

Ah god, your right, I didn't fully perceive that.

[Phmcw]

Ok. So You want to isolate someone from a group because of its percieved harmfull influence. Great, but that's a problem whose solutions are very dependent on the exact situation.

First the way you exposed the situation make me think you're both teens between 16-18 yo. If you're not, the situation is completely different.

Second, don't trust your own judgment too much : is there another person (parent) that can help you and mediate in this matter? Having enough relations and talks with mature adults is very important for a teen/ young adult developement, and while I know that being the sole support of someone can be extreely fullfilling, you're just an humain with plenty of flaws yourself (and a big one if you can't see this).

And last, a toxic relationship is often something one seek. Being rescued (by you) is often the very aim of someone putting itself into trouble and your post reek of high drama relationship. Maybe toning down, the white-knighting on your part, tactfully, could lessen in itself these behaviors.

ps: manipulating peoples is nice but not an aim in itself, and for someone with an hammer, everything look like a nail.

[Angle]

Yeah, I have to agree with everyone else- unless you tell us more details, I'd be really hesitant to advise you.

[CaptainMcClellan]

Yes I am 18. Yes that does influence the situation. Yes she's about the same age.

I know that I am not flawless and sadly there is no mediation, that's why I'm asking for help wherever I can get it.

Moreover... more important things have come up than this. Things that have given me more insight into (potential) motives for all of this. Blah, blah, blah. It won't be an issue much longer I don't think and best of all I don't have to be anything but emotionally supportive and encouraging, which is something I aim to do anyway.

A recent epiphany also helped resolve one of the major bones of contention, so that's that.

I do respect her autonomy by the way, I just want her to think about what she's saying without being told by a large group of belligerent teenagers who think they're always right. When you get involved in a "political activism" group on the internet (harmless as they are) it tends to be a negative influence.

I don't want her to lose her friends or social groups either, she needs someone besides me. For me to be her sole support would be abusive. At the same time, it is not support for someone to be constantly spewing "arguments" that fall apart under scrutiny and are designed simply to upset. ( And they do upset her. )

As per her actual friends, I worry sometimes based on comments she has made, but I trust her to be able to handle herself. ( I trust that the friends have no malevolence as well. ) Still, it is in my nature to be a bit hyper-vigilant. ( Which means I may be overreacting. ) However, I don't *force* her to do anything. Have I manipulated outcomes? Once or twice... Was it the right thing to do? I'm honestly not sure. ( Probably not.  Though to my defense she was manipulating the situation herself and my manipulation was simply to blow her charade*. ) It was done in a fit of upset though, and that's not where I am now. I've matured enough to know when to ask for help. Like now, for instance. I don't even believe any more that now is the time to do anything about the "political groups" that she participates in, as this year has apparently been much tougher for her than she initially let on. Pressing the issue has its time, but by then she may have simply lost interest in these groups rendering this whole discussion irrelevant.

I don't know what I'm going to do but I think I've gleaned all the advise that I can from Bay12 for now. ( Though I am not sure if I will lock the thread or not. ) I will discuss it additionally with closer and trusted friends.

Spoiler: The Heavy Drama (click to show/hide)

Yes, like all teenage romances, ours has had its share of bullshit drama and bad choices. I just want it to last past them.

Anyways, the situation that the asterisk refered to:

At one point we had broken up over some issue or another. It was her decision, but I went along with in the hope that we could "still be friends" and such. During this time she took up dating another boy whom she had a crush on since just before the break-up. However, she didn't tell me this, playing it off verbally as "just a fling" etc. etc., which I accepted not because I believed but because I *wanted* it to be true and well, hindsight is 20/20 and it wouldn't be true denial if I had done it on a conscious level.

So she goes on with the dating of this person under the guise of it being just a means to fulfill a physical desire that I couldn't. ( And wouldn't. Though I feel the reasons were justified. ) What is particularly hurtful in retrospect is that she tried to make me be friends with him, which was a doomed effort. At any rate, during Thanksgiving break she was being flirtatious for reasons that are her own, and me being stupid  desperate, and still in love with her went for it. :/  Since she had been flirting over text chat I had a record of it.

So anyway, in the following days I was in a particularly bad mood and it happened I was talking to her boyfriend. ( I made efforts to do as she wished and befriend him, and he was an okay enough guy. ) I made a few sour remarks about her and how I felt and he said "I would appreciate you not bad-mouthing my girlfriend." To which I retorted something to the effect of "So that's how it is huh? Good to know she was lying." A few more things were said and I revealed what had happened. I even offered to show him proof and he basically said that he was going to ask her about it. He texted her and from all report she didn't deny it and told the whole truth. He immediately broke up with her for violating his trust. I tried apologizing but he told me to not bother, saying that she should've been upfront and it was reasonable to believe I didn't know that they were dating.

I made no effort to sever their friendship, even offering to try and help her salvage it. She refused and to this day I don't talk to him. Months later she and I resumed dating and she's reportedly still friends with him, though the friendship was never the same... That was over a year ago.

[Vector]

. . . . So, you want us to help you manipulate her out of being involved in political activism. Wonderful.

[Lyeos]

. . . . So, you want us to help you manipulate her out of being involved in political activism. Wonderful.

Unless I'm mistaken, it was about getting her to think about these things and putting together convincing/sound arguments rather than just listening to what a group of teenagers on the internet tell her to believe and say. Not about getting her out of political activism... But actually thinking her arguments through and having thoughts other than what they're telling her to have.

[CaptainMcClellan]

. . . . So, you want us to help you manipulate her out of being involved in political activism. Wonderful.

Hello comment ninja. That question doesn't have an easy answer, and I'm probably going to sleep. So let me try and explain this as best I can: Yes and no. Political involvement and political activism are two separate things. And political activism is even not so bad when done correctly. However, the people in question have no clearly defined goals, practical plans, or peaceful solutions. They just have "passion" and access to a keyboard. They have accusations and a viewpoint that the current systems of all societal function need to be overthrown and done away with rather than tackled a thing at a time in a logical, consistent manner. Some of the literature provided by these groups sound dangerously close to terrorism including: suppression of dissent, scare tactics, advocating ad nauseum rhetoric over actually finding solutions, and so on. While I can't say her particular branch is so radical, I do know she has bandied about radical ideas as solutions without considering the complications and implications. So I hope that explains why I phrased things as I did. It was also in anticipation of such comments as this that I tried to reserve details, but hell I'm already spilling nearly everything by now. And I don't totally disagree with her points, but I do disagree with the methods. And there are issues in which the points are fallacious and I disagree with them but it's difficult to voice my side of the debate without upsetting her by giving off the impression that I'm attacking the group. Moreover, as long as more voices are telling her that radicalism is correct and that I can't be trusted because I both disagree with and defy ( by my very existence ) their views she will be more inclined to believe it because the pressure is greater. And that the speech and dogma sometimes slips out and she slides into ad hominem based on my mere identity shows a fundamnetal hypocrisy of the groups as well as its negative impact. I am not well pleased that she takes any of their divisive terminology and dogma seriously. I think that if she could disassociate with the groups in question, she would see that they are full of prejudice and zealotry, but no real results. Moreover, I think she would realize that she can and should make a much larger and much more positive impact on the world if she didn't associate and identify with this group and stick their ideals to herself like cheap stickers when she seems to disagree with them when pressed for further information. Again, maybe I'm just being completely delusional, right? Well I don't see her sticking with this group for much longer by her own decision, so I am content to wait for her to find something better.

If we assume the best, OP is trying to get his girlfriend out of what he thinks of as (but not necessarily is) bad company. If we assume the worst, which we maybe shouldn't because it's kinda harsh, OP is asking how to separate her from her friends.

I feel like it's the former not the latter, many might disagree...

Again, I have realized that I may be overreacting at least a little ( though I am at least slightly right. ) That's why I'm glad I came *here* and gave myself time to think and multiple perspectives instead of trying to bring it up with her straight away which likely would have failed to the detriment of us both.

I would still like to see her get away from these groups but I know suspect she will do so on her own as her personal circumstances improve. I can wait for her to come to the conclusions on her own, after all she recently came to a conclusion that I had tried to posit months ago on her own. That is what makes me feel this thread is obsolete because after that we were able to communicate about what was actually the issue. So I feel the best course of action is to just wait out her involvement in this group. ( Unless she shows signs of self-harm, which thankfully is not a big push from the main group at all. Some individuals perhaps... Irregardless, I'm getting off track because if I know her as well as I think I do, she wouldn't hurt herself over something this stupid. ( Or at all, for that matter, I am so very glad she's not addicted to self-harm... That's a personal issue I've had to deal with in too many people I care about already. ) )

So, I hope all goes well from here and I thank you all for your help. At very least it was good to discuss it with people not involved in the scenarios or paid for their opinion.

Umm... This will probably be my last post and I'll let you all get in your final comments, whatever they may be.

[Angle]

Hmm. Yeah, that does sound troublesome. Personally, I'd go ahead and dive in, and try and pull the entire group away from such troublesome tactics. That's a LOT of effort though, and would require that you spend a great deal of time on the attempt. You need to first convince them that you share their goals, and then convince them that their proposed methods are ineffective. Does this group have a name, or better yet, a website? If so, you should drop it so we can check up on them.

[CaptainMcClellan]

Hmm. Yeah, that does sound troublesome. Personally, I'd go ahead and dive in, and try and pull the entire group away from such troublesome tactics. That's a LOT of effort though, and would require that you spend a great deal of time on the attempt. You need to first convince them that you share their goals, and then convince them that their proposed methods are ineffective. Does this group have a name, or better yet, a website? If so, you should drop it so we can check up on them.

No, it's highly decentralized and disorganized and the label they give themselves can apply to so many things that there are actually several groups, which is why I've been alternating between "group" and "groups". Moreover, some of the sub-groups posit that receiving any help at all from outsiders renders their work useless. Even moreso, some sub-groups would merely flame, troll, and harass me for attempting to extend an olive branch and on the more sensible side we would disagree on at least one key point that would render cooperation useless. Moreover the group as a whole is exclusionary and almost elitist in some places, and I qualify for every single one of their exclusions. Besides, if it took 8 months to convince someone who (mostly) trusts me and wants to spend the rest of their life with me on a simple issue, I don't see rationalizing the whole group as a fruitful endeavour. But a man can dream, yea? At any rate, one of my key beliefs makes it impossible for them to retain their identity and agree with me enough for cooperation. Ironically, it's what they think they stand for: to reduce social divisions between classes, increase human cooperation, and for the lessening of labeling and crass categorization of humanity with inaccurate labels. Yet, by their very name they put forth a misinterpretation of their goals and divide humanity into two groups and make all issues about this division! Yes, radical feminists. No being so-called "antifeminist" doesn't make me a misogynist nor does it mean I don't respect women as equally valuable to men. In fact, I want to reclaim some of the value that I feel has been lost to society of a man's life. Yet whenever anyone says "feminist" it's like calling down a shitstorm on one's own head. I don't figure it was fair to assume that Bay12 would be equally as belligerent as other forums and discussion channels. And again, I don't completely disagree with their ideals, some of them make very valid points about concerns that should be addressed, they just go out of their way to ensure that they don't get addressed properly. And that's every feminist I have had experience with, and I know that my girlfriend's branch is likely particularly bad because of accusations that all my ideas are because I am a "White cis male". I am sick to death of that line: "White male bigots", "White cis men", etc. It seems to be everywhere in their attitude and in their writing! Demonizing and alienating any portion of the populance is wrong ( isn't it? ) and moreover shows the bigoted hypocrisy I mentioned earlier. I don't assume all feminists are "evil, belligerent, leeches", I judge them based on the validity of each individual's logic. ( Or in the case when they're being drones, the logic of the strongest personalities. ie Those writing the articles and pushing the dogma.) Yet I fall under that crippling overgeneralization of an entire race and gender which is based on paranoia and scare tactics! Moreover, this kind of thinking does nothing but perpetuate negative stereotypes that obscure the real and important issues that they do want addressed. Plain and simple, I can't fix it, they have to do it themselves, but I can prevent my girlfriend from being exposed to the peer pressure to conform to that sort of faulty logic and fierce dedication to a group even when the group has stopped standing for the things that got you into the group in the first place! >.<

I can link you to literally dozens of different negative trends, including those that seem to be affecting my girlfriend most. That said, the scope of this issue has gotten so horrifically complex that I couldn't explain in any reasonable amount of time. I know the majority of what I've seen boils down to angry teenagers and college-agers who aren't getting their way, but the fact that it's negatively impacting people I care about ( and somewhat less so the fact that it's spawning "political platforms" ripe for some charismatic individual to weaponize)  is what has me so involved in this in the first place. Otherwise, I would've just ignored it because it is an unsolvable problem rooted in things I do not have the energy, reach, or time to budge. At best, I can help a few see things in a different light and try and solve the issues that bother them in a positive way, but even that is a Herculean task for which I am ill equipped and not responsible. )

[Angle]

Ohh... I'd assumed they were socialists/anarchists/whatever bent on violent revolution, or some such nonsense. That's still odd though. I've seen people complaining about feminism a lot, but myself, as a white cis straight male, have seen very little to complain about. Perhaps you could refer me? I'd like to be able to understand this phenomenon.

To everyone else: I wish to speak to the OP on this undisturbed. Could you please wait until he's answered my questions before you argue with him? I know it's a bit to ask, but I'd like to ask all the same. If you think I'm an ass for asking, you can tell me by PM and I'd be happy to listen. Thank you very much.

[CaptainMcClellan]

Certainly, but keep on your critical thinking caps because some of the detractors, while having valid points, aren't much better. Besides that, context is very important and almost nowhere does one get the entire context.

First though, a set of serious questions. ( To give me time to grab the links. ) Do you think a male equivalent of feminism should exist, and if so, why? Do you believe that civil rights issues for men exist? Do you believe sexism towards men exists? And prejudices? Do you believe that grouping and labelling people is wrong or at least unadvisable?

Another thing, I cannot say I've done an exhaustive and comprehensive research thesis on the subject, and I am primarially focused more on the impacts to the lives of those neutral and/or indifferent in what is trying to be made into an "us vs them". ( Which itself scares me. ) Moreover, never assume I am faultless, I have agged on members of different groups and gone of on furious rants myself. I'm trying to remove myself from the situation and be completely reasonable about this. Hell, I'm even trying to just accept the status quo, but it seems really hard to do when dealing with people.

Well at any rate, I suppose I'm stuck writing a research paper and a thesis paper now. So, forgive me if I procrastinate. I think I'll need to rename and move the thread if we're getting into this instead of advice. I was really hoping I wouldn't have to spend the majority of my time explaining why I need help rather than getting it, but I knew what I was doing opening this can of worms. Can't say I didn't try to make things simpler.

[Vector]

Fucking called it.