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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 1032403 times)

LordBaal

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10980 on: December 06, 2018, 02:49:33 pm »

By the Emperor, keep us posted!
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Kot

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10981 on: December 06, 2018, 04:13:58 pm »

I mean, I'm not sure what there is to be posting. If you have any specific questions, sure. Game is pretty much Armada, but somewhat different. It suffers from bunch of technical problems, but I think it plays a bit more nicely now. Maps now have control points on them, which seem to me like they aren't always fair, but I think I only once had a battle end on me while I was still fighting, and it stops the "chase the one Eldar cruiser across the whole map" bullshit.
Nearly all offensive abilities such as boarding actions, torpedoes or other stuff have a limit of three. At first it seems weird, but I think this is an amazing way to balance things out. Upgrades now come as two choices for whole fleet - some of them apply to all ships, such as various variations on the "doesn't get hurt in asteroids" that nearly every faction (apart from Tyranids, I think) has, to specific groups of ships like Tau Coordinator which makes Escort ship accuracy better if they're in Lock-On stance, or to the Flagship like Imperial Aurent-pattern Weaponry boosting range of weapons on the Flagship by 4500.
Your Flagship also gets two active abilities such as bombs, probes and so on. Most of them also have three use limit, but some are limitless, like the one that gives you shield invincibility for few seconds.
Stances - previous game timed orders such as Lock On, Brace for Impact and Running Silent are now stances. You pick it, it runs until it's somehow stopped or you pick another stance, but there is a cooldown between changing them.
Boarding is changed - all ships now have three (well, four) levels of crew, with a number representing the amount of crew they still need to lose to go level lower. The amount of crew varies, and each level makes the ship less good at everything, and after you lose the three levels your ship is left without crew, so it can't do anything anymore. Your own ships can however be reclaimed if you board them, but no ship capture as far as I know.
Morale is now a visible bar, some races (or even particular ship classes) can have inherently smaller or bigger morale. For some it's not a big concern, especially Marines who don't have the bar at all, but some races break very easily. Mutiny doesn't mean the ship instantly tries to warp out now, though, it usually just tries to go for edge of the map and can have control given back to you before that happens. I think sometimes they still try to warp out, I'm not sure what it depends on. If your deck is gone, can't stop mutiny by execution.
Repair, recovering crew (which doesn't allow you to regain a lost level, but gives you a bigger threshold before losing the next one) and boosting morale (which, notably, flagships do in a zone around them that applies to all allied ships) share cooldown.
As far as races go, Imperial Guard is still the jack of all trades, having most variations. Tons of various playstyles here.
Space Marines are the close quarters knife fighters. Armour, bunch of good guns, good boarders, don't give a fuck about morale.
Mechanicus are on the other end of spectrum and focus on long range, all their ships from Cruiser up have Nova Cannons, and notably, Ark Mechanicus mounts both a Nova Cannon and a Spur that is used for ramming, something no other Imperial ship does. From what I saw, most people just spam as many Ark Mechanicus as they can, and they're a bit of a tough nut to crack in 1v1, since they can have like three and some escorts, which they can also take all Imperial ones, including Marine escorts, but otherwise are limited to "Mechanicus-ized" Imperial Navy ships (that are still different, as I said, they have the same selection of weaponry on cruisers as Navy, except instead of torpedoes, all of them have Nova Cannons), their only truly unique one being Ark Mechanicus. They do look different, though, if that's what you're worried about.
Chaos is the same old Chaos, broadsiding from afar, most notably their choice of sub-faction is more than cosmetic because it impacts the choice of upgrades and abilities they can pick, in line with warband allegiances.
Corsairs, "Asuryani", and Dark Eldar play somewhat similarly, but have different upgrades. Corsairs are like in previous game, Craftworld seem to be a bit more tanky, but don't have anything bigger than Battle Cruiser, Dark Eldar are more similar to Corsairs, but have various bonuses regarding boarding, including replenishing crew with succesful ones because slaves. Still, hit and run fuckers as a species.
Orks are Orks, kinda glass cannons and with weak morale, but they also got Roks in two variants now. Their fleet can't be all those, as they can't be flagships, and you need at least one, and they're slow as heck, but amazing turtles and hit very hard and very far. It's like taking a bunker into spaceship fight. Like all Ork ships though, their morale is low and they get set on fire easily.
Necrons are quality over quantity, but I feel like they're somewhat underpowered right now. They get teleports as free abilities, are generally high damage, high armor, lots of survivability abilities, and also like all of them have a very high damage ability that fucks any enemies in close proximity to them, but they don't have shields, which results in them usually racking up tons of critical damage before even closing in enough to do a lot.
Tyranids are somewhat weak right now too, it seems, but they're absolute close combat monsters more than anything else. They absolutely murder entire crews and leave empty husks of ships behind if they are able to get close enough. They get some fun abilities like giant-ass tongues to drag enemies towards them, and so on, but they lose out at range a lot. If you manage to keep them away, you can shoot them to pieces, and once you get rid of the bigger ones, the smaller ones don't really matter that much, since they're individually really weak. They also have really big list of variants of same bugs, I think in total they probably have more variants than Imperial Navy. Anyhow, I think they have a really nice feel to them, in fact, I think all factions do feel proper.
Tau Protector and Merchant fleets feel really strong, but still less so than in previous game. They're a bit on slow side, and weak, but have really high damage and Merchants also have high protection, but their real strength comes from Demiurg and Kroot Ships, which are really fucking strong, but also expensive. On the bright side, none of the "ally" ships can be Flagships, so at least they are relatively easy to mutiny after sniping the Tau ships.
Oh yeah and everything is considerably bigger. 2v2 is limited right now, but you can get away with like four battleships in 1v1 now.
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Egan_BW

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10982 on: December 06, 2018, 07:29:13 pm »

You know, having run the numbers it's not inconceivable that the Tau of all races could seriously attempt intergalactic travel. Their ether drives, while slower than the Imperial warp drives, travel at a consistent speed in the interstices between the Warp and real space, and so would not operate differently in the presumably calmer extragalactic Warp. Nor do they need the Astronomican or the Webway.

Using the 2nd Ed. Imperial Guard codex's average of 400 ly/day (or rather, 10,000 ly/ 10-40 days),  a Tau ship running at the listed 1/5th speed could reach the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy in just over 2.5 years, the Magellanic Clouds in 5-7, and Andromeda in 68. That last one is admittedly longer than the Tau lifespan, but between the Ethereals' unifying effect and the Tau's stasis capability we might expect them to avoid the Three Generations Problem and so keep the fleet running that long.

I'd guess that Tau trying to reach andromeda would have to deal with extragalactic ork pirates hungry for something to fight that's not orks.
And once they arrived they would probably still be outgunned by whatever lives in andromeda.
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Teneb

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10983 on: December 06, 2018, 08:01:44 pm »

You know, having run the numbers it's not inconceivable that the Tau of all races could seriously attempt intergalactic travel. Their ether drives, while slower than the Imperial warp drives, travel at a consistent speed in the interstices between the Warp and real space, and so would not operate differently in the presumably calmer extragalactic Warp. Nor do they need the Astronomican or the Webway.

Using the 2nd Ed. Imperial Guard codex's average of 400 ly/day (or rather, 10,000 ly/ 10-40 days),  a Tau ship running at the listed 1/5th speed could reach the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy in just over 2.5 years, the Magellanic Clouds in 5-7, and Andromeda in 68. That last one is admittedly longer than the Tau lifespan, but between the Ethereals' unifying effect and the Tau's stasis capability we might expect them to avoid the Three Generations Problem and so keep the fleet running that long.

I'd guess that Tau trying to reach andromeda would have to deal with extragalactic ork pirates hungry for something to fight that's not orks.
And once they arrived they would probably still be outgunned by whatever lives in andromeda.
Spoilers: It's more orks.
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spazyak

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10984 on: December 06, 2018, 08:19:41 pm »

Just nids and orks...and probably a few eldar.
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Hanslanda

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10985 on: December 07, 2018, 06:41:30 am »

The rest of the universe is fractal Tyranids and Orks in the shape of Eldar and Necrons.
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Kot

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10986 on: December 08, 2018, 09:47:14 pm »

I think I met the best Ork player today. His entire fleet composition was like, one battleship and dozens of escorts. Before they even came into identification range I had plopped 3/4 of his navy with Nova Cannons, which are apparently good enough to one-shoot Ork escorts, and then bullied the rest until they died. I think his idea was ramming the enemy with them? I'm not sure, he could also have dodged like at least half of those Nova cannon shots, but I think he was too busy having fun and typing ORKZORKZORKZORKZORKZORKZORKZ into chat. I think he has moral victory over me.
In other news, this is still beta and devs are saying that a lot of things will change, but Tau are still pretty, well, overpowered? Not as good as they were before, since their main claim to fame which was bullshit upgrades got significantly nerfed, but they're pretty outrageous if done correctly. Also, people caught on so a lot of them are using exploits and really weird tactics. Although, I have to admit I thought at least one was intended, because even AI does it. Tyranids are capable of deleting crews like none else, but as it turns out, they're actually not THAT amazing at it, at least looking at pure numbers. They have bunch of stuff that helps with it, but yesterday I have lost a game where Tyranid light cruiser one-shotted my remaining full-crew battleship. Tyranid light cruiser crew damage is 6. IN battleships have like 54 crew total. As you can understand, this poses a significant problem.
Tau, in addition to being overall very strong, have an exploit where each subsequent game gives them more and more escorts, over limit. Mind you, this happened in 2v2 and the dude was on my team, but he had regular 600 points of Tau ships, and like 20 escorts, which I think would make him go about 400-600 points over limit.
There's quite a lot more stupid shit, getting into match is a problem even after servers got fixed, because people just sometimes drop, and in 1v1 you can't do anything but quit the game with the help of Task Manager, or in 2v2, the team whose player quits just automatically loses. Custom fleet creation tends to freeze up the game a lot (and for no good reason it seems, since it's just picking ships from a list, not even seeing 3D models of them like in previous game), sometimes it just loses connection, I had once a bug where I was stuck with loading screen that never went away, but I was actually in game, seeing elements of HUD and being able to order units around, but since I was blind I couldn't do shit, but thankfully, the game crashed as soon as fleets got in range and started firing anyway.
It's beta. I hope they really fix all that until January, but considering the original release was supposed to be what, month ago, and my experiences with previous game I'm... skeptical. It's a great shame, in my opinion, since the game has real potential and is really fun when it actually works, but I can already see it being dead really fast.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and you can apparently turn off the anti-cheat system with a startup parameter and still be able to play online without it. What it actually lets you do, I don't know, but people do that when it stops them from playing the game for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 09:50:54 pm by Kot »
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Andres

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10987 on: December 08, 2018, 11:09:14 pm »

How do you repair ships in Armada aside from clicking Emergency Repairs?
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10988 on: December 09, 2018, 12:20:02 am »

How do you repair ships in Armada aside from clicking Emergency Repairs?

If it's in the campaign, when you're viewing the destroyed ship in Port Maw, there should be a button somewhere which you can press to repair the ship. I think it costs renown to do and maybe takes a few turns.

During battle there's no real way to repair ships. Emergency Repairs gives them some health back and extinguishes fires but it doesn't repair guns or destroyed componants like engines.
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LordBaal

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10989 on: December 09, 2018, 05:39:30 am »

Thanks Kot. Seems like a lot has changed. I don't know how to feel about this crew mechanics. Hopefully they'll fix all those mp issues and the custom fleet one.

Also, yeah, that guy definitively won in roleplaying at least.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

misko27

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10990 on: December 09, 2018, 12:57:43 pm »

Crew sounds interesting, at least. Does it interact with mutiny? Can you send troops to a mutinying ship?

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Kot

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10991 on: December 09, 2018, 02:49:20 pm »

I don't think so, but I'll try to check. You can stop mutiny with flagship morale boost that applies in a circle around the ship, and losing crew certainly impacts morale. I think that getting decrewed doesn't have as much impact on morale of friendly ships as destruction, since you can recapture those, but also decrewed ships lose shields and all, so they're pretty easy to destroy anyway. Also, with the removal of having to repair your ships between battles in multiplayer warping out seems to mostly serve as a way to conserve morale of other ships, which is... eh?
Oh, also, one of funnier bugs is that Necron ships gain health when rammed by Tyranids, for whatever reason, even over the regular limit. A lot over the regular limit, bordering with making them unkillable, apart, from, well, getting their crew deleted.
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Andres

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10992 on: December 10, 2018, 07:11:22 am »

How come there's no female Space Marines? GW's been willing to make big lore retcons like that before, turning the necrons from mindless killing machines to Tomb Kings in space.
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pisskop

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10993 on: December 10, 2018, 07:17:29 am »

Well Primarus Marines would be the time to do it, but why introduce even more hostility?

Woman Marines would look like guys anyway.  Why haven't you been painting your helmeted, armored, tit-less male marines to look like female marines?  What, people thought that female marines would look like 4chan drawings?

I guess that women still have the Sororitas.
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: full_output_name.replace("waaagh","WAAAGH")
« Reply #10994 on: December 10, 2018, 07:27:42 am »

Because the fanbase would self-destruct, if you go by internet discussions about the topic. There’s lore reasons but like you say, those could be retconned. I think they want to keep the Space Marines-Sisters of Battle divide, as they’re sort of clear counterparts. Female Marines would go against that.

I suspect it’s also about the models - the very male models are already done, and they don’t want to make new ones for a lore change that would be controversial at best anyway. According to Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the BL writers, the concept of female Custodes came up in a talk (as there’s no lore reason for them to be all male), but the model department vetoed it hard on the basis that the models were already done.

Which seems strange, given that a) factions like IG prominently have both men and women in the ranks in the lore while the models appear to be all male and b) female Astartes/Custodes wouldn’t really be any different to male ones in appearance, given all the conditioning and augmentation they go through. Presumably there’s a larger resistance to the idea too.

Rather than asking for female SMs, I wish people would show the Sororitas more love. Space nuns are best faction anyway.
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