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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: [loading grimdark, please wait]  (Read 1053267 times)

Paxiecrunchle

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9135 on: September 19, 2017, 04:55:31 pm »

Actually my stance is that the Imperium is as bad as everyone else. There is no light in the darkness, there isn't even any real grey. There is no hope, salvation was burned and buried long ago. All that remains is to see how long it takes for the crumbling shell of humanity to die.
But there is. You're just seeing the one side of the coin.

The Imperium kills and enslaves children,
So do we.

makes no distinction between innocent and guilty,
So do we.

drives enslaved and indoctrinated masses into hails of cannonfire
Yeah also a thing.

tears apart it's own people to turn them into weapons, destroys the very souls of it's own people to make cyborg forklifts,
I'm pretty sure we'd do that too if it was possible in our current tech level.

liquifiy those who die in battle to feed to their fellow soldiers as nutrient paste,
I'd actually doubt that claim, especially relating to whole Imperium. It really sounds like more hassle to retrieve the bodies than anything.

crush the populace with factory labour the likes of which would make a Victorian workhouse seem like a holiday,
Yes, also a check.

poison the masses with chemical waste,
We totally do that too.

value human life less than they do the flak armour it can wear into battle,
Yes. That too.

provide entire worlds for the pleasure of former notaries of government while people choke on smoke and sleep on rags and countless other wrongs besides.
Not worlds, but oh boy we do.

The difference is scale. There is more suffering when it comes to whole Galaxy, but there is also more happiness, which, understandably, is not really in spotlight of nearly all Wh40k media.

All in the name of preserving something it lost long ago. Worse than lost even, it took so many of the little things, the quiet moments, the compassion, the mercy, the hope of it's people and it killed them for being inefficient. It is a society where slowing down factory work because of crippling illness receives a beating, where attempts to understand why things are the way they are invites death and kindness is viewed with contempt at best.
It's not for something that has been lost. It's for something that can be.

It drew the attention of the gods after the Fall deliberately,
They already noticed humanity pretty well, Emperor just made them more pissed in the general sense of "fuck Emperor and his Imperium because they actually pose some sort of threat" rather than "lol let's fuck with Humans forever, they are our toys".

it gave birth to the sons who would give Chaos an army, indeed it even gave birth to that army.
They didin't give them willingly. The Horus Heresy was also result of other shitty decisions that precede it by millenia.

The Eldar birthed monsters, but it was mankind who worshipped them, who called out to them and who call to them still.

So do thousands of other xenos races.

It is mankind who wage war in the hopes of defeating gods who personify that same war.

So yeah, better lay down and die?

In any other reality to struggle and strive would be the greatest way to defeat the gods, in 40k it is the main source of their power.

It's not that simple, really. The exact mechanics aren't clear, and it might as well fuel Emperor now. Warp, I ain't gotta explain shit.

The galaxy turns according to designs millenia in the making and is embroiled forever in the machinations of being who were born from the minds of all mortals but shaped by man above all others.
Yeah, no. Warp was fucked beyond recognition by the War in Heaven, and the resulting fucked up Gods are directly due to that, not humans... or are you just forgetting the whole Enslavers plague and all that shit?

The Imperium is the only form 'humanity' can survive in outside of Chaos, but much like the Interex, the Terran warlords, the people of Nostromo and countless others before them, what is surviving isn't truly worthy of the name human anymore.
Then what is? What is worthy calling humanity?

Could you clarify what you mean by "we" humanity isn't a unified whole and quite a few societies try a great deal to distinguish guilt versus innocence.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9136 on: September 19, 2017, 04:58:17 pm »

The Ethereals are most likely a genetically modified caste created by either humans, eldar, necrons, c'tan, or old ones.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9137 on: September 19, 2017, 05:01:23 pm »

The Ethereals are most likely a genetically modified caste created by either humans, eldar, necrons, c'tan, or old ones.

How could it have been humans? Humans can't safely cross through warp storms last time I checked, necrons...caring about organic s, somehow I'm dubious, now those last few options might be worth looking at.

Akura

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9138 on: September 19, 2017, 05:06:29 pm »

I've heard it was Tzeentch. The fact that warp storms showed up just as humans were going to nuke the primitive Tau, storms that lasted several millenia and when they finally subsided, the Tau came out swinging under unified leadership, suggests some Chaos dickery.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9139 on: September 19, 2017, 05:08:27 pm »

It could have been humans because techpriests are without exception fucking loons, some of them happen to be loons about biology, and it was a human fleet that discovered the Tau first. A Magos could have easily gotten trapped there and decided to start experimenting.
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Egan_BW

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9140 on: September 19, 2017, 05:11:05 pm »

Was Orks, obvs
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Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9141 on: September 19, 2017, 05:19:41 pm »

There's also an implication that daemons were involved. Shortly before Farsight splitting from the Tau daemons tried to murder him.

My favorite current theory is that the Tau Ethereals were made to peacefully expose more species to chaos cults, because while the Tau don't worship things themselves they tolerate religions among their vassals and often adopt little thing from them to make them feel more comfortable. All it takes is a cult willing to play the long game and valuable xenos who have remained mostly pure could be corrupted and the empire as a whole is another war front for the Imperium in an area that was formerly largely uncontested. As is the Tau have tried to integrate chaos cults more than once, it's just never worked out so far.

If the Tau were supposed to be a weapon against Chaos they're in more or less the completely wrong place for it and the Eldar and Necrons haven't been shy about dicking them over whenever they meet. They don't fit the C'tan's MO and the Old Ones are generally treated as proper dead.

Xenology, which is oop, hinted towards the Eldar theory being true, the Eldar kidnapped a queen from a colony based species called Q'orl who used pheremones as part of their language to make an 'uncorroded swarm' after the Q'orl were infected by a warp plague and aided in finding a cure by the Eldar. A while later Ethereals popped up and took control of the tribal Tau. I personally doubt GW will go that route if they ever bother explaining it, linking the Tau to a race of bugs that have never appeared in any actual capacity beyond a single utility item in Dark Heresy just seems like a bad move likely to alienate Tau players, and Q'orl are too similar to Tyranids in core concept to be introduced into tabletop to get them established first
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Loud Whispers

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9142 on: September 19, 2017, 05:26:12 pm »

There's also an implication that daemons were involved. Shortly before Farsight splitting from the Tau daemons tried to murder him.

My favorite current theory is that the Tau Ethereals were made to peacefully expose more species to chaos cults, because while the Tau don't worship things themselves they tolerate religions among their vassals and often adopt little thing from them to make them feel more comfortable. All it takes is a cult willing to play the long game and valuable xenos who have remained mostly pure could be corrupted and the empire as a whole is another war front for the Imperium in an area that was formerly largely uncontested. As is the Tau have tried to integrate chaos cults more than once, it's just never worked out so far.
Possibly, though it could just well be that demons are taking advantage of the Tau not understanding the warp yet holding dominion over warp-conscious entities, like vapour filling the mould of its container. Tau could also be necrontyr based what with their low-warp signature, sudden and rapid technological advancement and developing of artificial intelligence, but that could also just be coincidental to their origin

Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9143 on: September 19, 2017, 05:45:34 pm »

I don't really see the Necrons being involved. Their AI tech isn't really all that great, canopteks are technologically advanced but are very far from intelligent, they mostly rely on necrodermis and phase tech to be much use at all, while simple Tau camera drones are borderline sapient. There's only one canon named Necron into fleshy stuff and Szeras doesn't seem the type to create a species or even control one. The Tau also completely lack any actual warp protections beyond being the spiritual equivalent of dry toast so being an anti-chaos weapon seems unlikely for that reason as well.

It'd be like Fantasy Dwarves having the no wizards rule but not getting their magic resistance stuff, a flaw not a feature.
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LordBaal

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9144 on: September 19, 2017, 06:07:40 pm »

As far as I know the Tau do are resistant to warp corruption. Instead of hearing voices and stuff they don't hear anything or just static over the radio or something.

However there's a difference on that and being physically resistant to chaos. The line seems blurry and change depending on the author and such, but it seems chaos once manifested in reality can physically affect things. Ie a deamon stabbing a guard, but sorcery over living things (ie making guards levitate and explode) needs something to get a hold to, a flick of a soul or something and Tau just don't have enough or at all.

But of course lore chages and all I don't know if that's true anymore.
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Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9145 on: September 19, 2017, 06:15:45 pm »

They are fully vulnerable to psychic powers with the exception of being unable to hear telepathy properly. They also can't hear or see ghosts even though their drones and suit systems can. Which oddly enough indicates the semi-sentient drones are more warp sensitive than the people who made them.

A bolt of warp lightning or a pyromancer's flames will kill Tau dead.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9146 on: September 19, 2017, 06:21:46 pm »

The drone thing is consistent, machine intelligence is almost universally vulnerable to Chaos corruption. If I had to guess, I'd say that as artificial intelligence lacks a soul, it lacks even the most rudimentary defenses that non-psyker non-blank organics have such as the Armor of Contempt. Chaos can warp them as easily as it can warp any other form of dead matter, which is very easily, and they'll be focused on for that very reason.
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Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9147 on: September 19, 2017, 06:35:55 pm »

Yeah but normally I don't think that AI can hear ghosts, that's an unusual thing.
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Egan_BW

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9148 on: September 19, 2017, 06:40:25 pm »

Reminds me of some old XCOM EU video where someone brings six shivs to a UFO mission. Goes well, until they run into an Ethereal. Robotic units are immune to mind control, but ethereals have an AOE attack which does physical damage depending on the target's Will stat to resist. Shivs can't be controlled, but they have 0 will. :P
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Loud Whispers

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Re: WH40K thread: No Such Thing As A Free Bolter, But Heresy's Everywhere!
« Reply #9149 on: September 19, 2017, 06:44:57 pm »

I don't really see the Necrons being involved. Their AI tech isn't really all that great, canopteks are technologically advanced but are very far from intelligent, they mostly rely on necrodermis and phase tech to be much use at all, while simple Tau camera drones are borderline sapient. There's only one canon named Necron into fleshy stuff and Szeras doesn't seem the type to create a species or even control one. The Tau also completely lack any actual warp protections beyond being the spiritual equivalent of dry toast so being an anti-chaos weapon seems unlikely for that reason as well.
It'd be like Fantasy Dwarves having the no wizards rule but not getting their magic resistance stuff, a flaw not a feature.
The Necrons aren't fond of using AI but theirs is canon the best, and probably the first invented in the galaxy (don't see the Old Ones learning programming). In the old 3rd ed canon the C'Tan Void Dragon is either capable of controlling most all machines and AI and is also likely the source of much of humanity's technology invented after the Dark Age of Technology (so all in all it's rather fortunate ironically that the mechanicus have been stifling innovation), though the mechanicus are also possibly stripping away their humanity on the whims of a toaster god. In the new fluff this is more or less the same but we do get one notable canon fluff of one of the Necron tomb worlds' AI glitching out over the millennia, reprogramming all of its Necron guests - assuming command despite having been invented as a caretaker program, attacking other tomb worlds with its necrons to continue conquering and reprogramming with no end limit. I'm not sure how powerful an AI with the computational power of Necron science and the space of a planet is, but for that matter there isn't much detail over exactly how intelligent even their lesser autonomous machines are - the scarabs, spiders, wraiths and other janitor bots. I wouldn't use sapience as a judge for the complexity of Necron AI, especially since in 40k the real challenge is creating AI that doesn't develop its own will - with the newfluff glitched tomb world being one such notable example where a Necron AI fucked up and stopped being subservient. And then of course there's the oddity of the actual Necrons themselves, but to put things into context: The C'Tan in both new and old fluff have conscious thoughts because the Necrontyr built their minds for them; Necrontyr computer science was quite literally godly. How much of that knowledge some Necron Crypteks or the C'Tan still have is pretty unknown, because the Necrons don't like communicating with the species that make good fluff. But from what we do know, Necron AI is immune to chaos, sapience (sans the one notable exception) self-building, repairing, capable of communication, receiving and processing a wide spectrum of information (light, sound, magnetic fields and so on) and is capable of lasting eternity.

So you have a race of people who in their infancy are about to be exterminated by Imperials when their planet is engulfed in a warp storm for thousands of years. When the warp storm ends, what remains of the planet is not a gibbering mess of chaos spawn, but a technologically advancing and emerging power that is untainted by chaos - being a race of young, short-lived scientists that have incredibly weak warp-signatures. They make use of advanced technology and AI, and have very little knowledge or experiences dealing with Chaos. Where they have eradicated growing Chaos incursions, they have done so not realizing that there was more to the incursions than unusual xenos rebellions, with the few exceptions of Tau who haven't gone insane upon learning the truth being Farsight - who is notable for having stumbled upon some technology which messes with time and is anti-demonic.

That to me speaks to the Tau being the product of either interference from Necron Crypteks, C'Tan or an Old One remnant. If there was an Old One remnant left alive when that warp storm hit the Tau homeworld (or indeed, if the Old One remnant caused the warp storm) then it's plausible that that Old One was capable of protecting the Tau homeworld the same way Emps covered Earth. We also know that the Old Ones are capable of and regularly engineered other species to fight for them in the War of Heaven, and from the Krork we also know that the Old Ones were capable of programming an instinctual knowledge of technology into a species. The genetic caste system and the ethereals controls over them would be of no issue to an Old One remnant. It would also reveal that the Old One remnant had changed priorities, from engineering a species capable of fighting the materially powerful but warpfully weak Necrons, to the warptastic chaos.

The Necron theory rests on the Necrons or C'Tan being involved, as we have seen them be involved with humanity previously. The Necrons possess all the technology needed to shield a world in perpetuity from the warp, with the Cadian pylons being the most dramatic example. We also know that they still possess, and that their Crypteks still continue to do, all kinds of experiments and shenanigans with time and the genes of species. Most notable would be the pariahs or human blanks, who were engineered by Necrons as an experiment against the warp. The low-warp signature of Tau and the ubiquitous of their technology harkens to this and the Necrontyr, and I find it more likely that if it was the Necrons, the Tau were experimented upon by a Cryptek and not the Void Dragon. This would also fit right into the Necron agenda, as they have been continuously seeking ways to eliminate the warp's influence over the materium

Could be Tzeentch, but then unless this was some Nth dimensional Vostroyan roulette strip poker chess, it doesn't make much sense to create a race of blueberries that are pretty efficient anti-Chaos weapons.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 06:48:47 pm by Loud Whispers »
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