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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 1043720 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6330 on: September 07, 2016, 08:36:48 pm »

Just now? Such amazing powers of observation. :P
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6331 on: September 07, 2016, 08:37:20 pm »

Theocracies: Imperium, Chaos

Semi-Theocracies: Eldar, Tau

Non-Theocracies: Necron, Tyranid, Ork, Dark Eldar

Err...

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Neonivek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6332 on: September 07, 2016, 08:38:35 pm »

Are you SURE about the Tyranids? :P may I remind you who their commander is? :P

Not to mention Imperium is split across multiple mini-factions.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6333 on: September 07, 2016, 08:40:10 pm »

Nah looks more like majority of factions are some fusion of Deiocracy (ruled directly by their god) / Divine Empire (wherein many factions vie around a core of imperial worlds and most day to day interactions are viewed through a central religious creed)

Compare the 40k factions to the most theocratic factions like the Word Bearers (do you have time to talk about our saviour Chaos) or the Vandire age of apostasy stuff (the original "set everything on fire for double heresy" mandem)

Neonivek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6334 on: September 07, 2016, 08:44:08 pm »

Most are either ruled by a god, ruled by someone who is "onto a god", or ruled by someone who is in place of a god :P

It makes 40k a lot like a war of religion.

And since belief = power... It also makes sense why it boils down that way. The belief that your religion will protect you from the influence of another... becomes that power (and is why, in spite being less powerful, the Fantasy Warhammer universe doesn't instantly and immediately collapse in spite having the same underlying physics)

Anyone who isn't harnessing belief for power in some manner... usually has an immunity to the effects... but even then they still have a state mandated religion (Hello Eldar).
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6335 on: September 07, 2016, 09:10:28 pm »

Orks - special government form of WAAAAAAGH!!!!
Space Marine chapters, their own government forms
Various planets and segmentum sectors doing their own thing - one commonality between these various sectors (and the space marines) is veneration of the Emperor and service to the Imperium, with Imperial governors assuming total authority over all planetary factions
Rogue Traders, libertarian privateer explorers in space
Adeptus Mechanicus, technocratic theocracy, pythagorean cultists on crack
Ecclesiarchy, super galactic theocracy. Doesn't have that many core beliefs, adapting mostly to a planet basis, rather ironically their common canon is based upon the workings of Lorgar
Inquistion, militant (by 40k standards) theocracy
Tau - Enlightened police state (they don't really strike me as theocratic, especially since the Tau do not appear to understand things like the chaos gods as being gods for example, merely powerful foes)
Eldar - Survivalist byzantaboo Empire (they can't be theocratic because most of their gods managed to get murdered), space pirates or space amish
Necrons - deiocracy (those ruled by C'Tan directly), absolute aristocratic necropoligarchy (those ruled by immortal soulless skeleton Overlords), extradimensional leper colony (flayed ones) and AI murder worlds (shit happens). In the case of the Overlord ones, they're not a theocracy, being at war with their gods
Tyranids - deiocracy, but their god has multiple personality disorder and occasionally fights itself
Chaos space marines - some fit the full bill of theocracies, others are space pirates, others are like the space marines on crack (whatever fits, fits). Word Bearers rather notably seem to be the only dedicated theocratic proselytizing faction in 40k (that extends its proselytizing target demographics beyond species, civilizations and dimensions), which is probably due to their history.
Chaos demons - deiocracies, or in the case of the soul forge faction some sort of weird corporation


The only thing to learn is that necropoligarchy is a good word
*EDIT
Almost forgot the Dark Eldar
No idea what the fuck their government is
Some sort of nihilistic hedonistic BDSM oligarchy
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 09:14:11 pm by Loud Whispers »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6336 on: September 07, 2016, 09:28:22 pm »

Tau - Enlightened police state (they don't really strike me as theocratic, especially since the Tau do not appear to understand things like the chaos gods as being gods for example, merely powerful foes)
The Tau can be taken as a theocracy by the Eastern conception of religion. The Greater Good may not postulate gods (nor does it specifically disparage them, see Gue'vessa), but it is an ipso facto transcendent sacred truth. That sort of crosses the border between philosophy and religion like in Confucianism, Taoism, and Shinto. Of course, if you take the Greater Good as just being utilitarianism in xenos it isn't a religion, hence the ambiguity.
Quote
Eldar - Survivalist byzantaboo Empire (they can't be theocratic because most of their gods managed to get murdered), space pirates or space amish
The paths sort of count as religion as per above. On the other hand, Slaanesh is functionally now the "Eldar God" whom they are at bitter war against like the Necrons with the C'tan.
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Tyranids - deiocracy, but their god has multiple personality disorder and occasionally fights itself
This I object to. The C'tan are already borderline but can be conceived of as deities of the materium thanks to 40k metaphysics (in spite of actually being a naturally-evolved species who went massively overboard once they acquired better forms), but the Hive Mind is just that, a hive mind. It can't do anything metaphysical and its only warp effect is [KSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH]. It also isn't one distinct thing, and technically is spread out amongst all Tyranids. NO THAT DOESN'T COUNT AS PANTHEISM GOD DAMNI-
Quote
*EDIT
Almost forgot the Dark Eldar
No idea what the fuck their government is
Some sort of nihilistic hedonistic BDSM oligarchy
Eatfuckkillopoly, also people forget but their main aesthetic is space pirates so the government is piracy.
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Neonivek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6337 on: September 07, 2016, 09:46:09 pm »

Quote
so the government is piracy

Ahh yes Piratocracy! Whoever has the most skull flags rules!

Or was it the guy who wears the most eye patches?
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Frumple

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6339 on: September 07, 2016, 10:00:20 pm »

Theocracies: Imperium, Chaos

Semi-Theocracies: Eldar, Tau

Non-Theocracies: Necron, Tyranid, Ork, Dark Eldar

Err...
The orkz are definitely a theocracy, though, or at least so intensely and uniformly religious they have no need for much of a government and simply live every moment of their lives according to their (species-wide) beliefs. Easily both the most committed and most consistent about religious adherence and observance of any faction in the setting, even. Their worship of gork and mork dye every aspect of their existence to the core, and there's bloody close to not a single member of the entire species that isn't devoutly faithful to such a degree even most of the imperial or chaos fanatics are put to shame, for all that their faith is difficult to identify as such to non-adherents. which makes sense, really, given that the entire setting is the orkish afterlife >_>

Pretty sure the necron are more or less theocratic, too... the oldcron definitely were, at least. And... isn't most of the DE's whole shtick doing what they're doing to supplicate a god, or something along those lines? If that's not what amounts to a theocracy I'm not sure what else it could be without getting into annoying semantics. It just happens that their particular religion involves a lot of torture and whatnot.

I think the thing that gets confusing is that religious adherence, and authority and its expression, for some of these folks is... not like it is for some others. They're by and large theocracies, they're just centered around religions that are rather oddly organized and expressed, comparatively.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6340 on: September 07, 2016, 10:12:29 pm »

Pretty sure the necron are more or less theocratic, too... the oldcron definitely were, at least.
The only Necrons who serve the C'tan are automatons. Unless you consider yourself the god of your electronics, that doesn't count. And the deific status of the C'tan in general is questionable as outlined before.
Quote
And... isn't most of the DE's whole shtick doing what they're doing to supplicate a god, or something along those lines? If that's not what amounts to a theocracy I'm not sure what else it could be without getting into annoying semantics. It just happens that their particular religion involves a lot of torture and whatnot.
It's a rather chicken and egg thing. The DEldar love torture, but they have to torture to refill because Slaanesh is eating them, so they continue to torture and thus love torture. They definitely are not a theocracy, and what they do is no more a religion than eating to stave off thermodynamics. For that matter, the Dark Eldar very specifically don't care about anything but satisfying themselves, but they do kill all their psykers and anybody monumentally stupid enough to actually try to worship Slaanesh. Their society also doesn't fit the profile. There is nothing to Commorragh but the law of power.

They were also doing all this pre-Slaanesh, they may even have been worse about it then since they were a major galactic power at the time.
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6341 on: September 07, 2016, 10:14:04 pm »

So I have bowed to inevitability and am now playing Tau.
Got most stuff cheap, but had to buy a hammerhead and a ghostkeel to round out the formations.

Intriguingly enough the small battlesuit cost twice as much as the gigantic tank.
Because GW. I feel like a sucker.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6342 on: September 07, 2016, 10:24:22 pm »

TFW you realize that the Krork engineered all of this in order to provide a utopian paradise for their descendants.
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Frumple

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6343 on: September 07, 2016, 10:43:46 pm »

Pretty sure the necron are more or less theocratic, too... the oldcron definitely were, at least.
The only Necrons who serve the C'tan are automatons. Unless you consider yourself the god of your electronics, that doesn't count. And the deific status of the C'tan in general is questionable as outlined before.
The actual deific status is kinda' irrelevant, really. If the things work like a god so far as their group is concerned (and the c'tan definitely do that much, at least) whether they are or not is functionally identical, by and large. Could definitely be different with the newcron, though. I have zero clue what this guys are doing these days.

And hey, the law of power thing is basically exactly what I was talking about. Rest of it, too. The actual manifestation of spiritual beliefs have little to no defined form. If they're doing what they're doing to contend with what they see as a god and protect their soul at the same time, whether they enjoy it or not doesn't matter in the slightest. If you've structured your entire civilization around the maintenance of your soul and attendance of your spiritual needs... you're looking at a religion. Even if that religion holds the law of power most sacrosanct, dedicates its methods to fending off the attention of its deity, and attends those needs with violent debauchery.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: You are what you eat, so eat your greens.
« Reply #6344 on: September 07, 2016, 10:46:14 pm »

And the god in question is real and wants to tear you apart.
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