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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: [loading grimdark, please wait]  (Read 1051105 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4635 on: June 30, 2016, 08:16:44 pm »

People should be unsure of if they want to root for the Imperium, or for Chaos, or for alien slave cucks the Tau. That's part of why it's interesting.
Yesss. I look forward to the hypothetical movie coming out and convincing a bunch of people new to WH40K that Chaos are the good guys. :P
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4636 on: June 30, 2016, 08:20:24 pm »

People should be unsure of if they want to root for the Imperium, or for Chaos, or for alien slave cucks the Tau. That's part of why it's interesting.
Yesss. I look forward to the hypothetical movie coming out and convincing a bunch of people new to WH40K that Chaos are the good guys. :P
That's because Chaos are the good guys, slave of the Corpse-Emperor.  8)
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4637 on: June 30, 2016, 08:34:51 pm »

Gaunt's Ghosts is pretty cut-and-dry in terms of followable plot. I would watch a Gaunt's Ghosts Siege of Vervunhive movie. I'd watch the shit out of that movie.
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4638 on: June 30, 2016, 08:42:41 pm »

Was wondering how well the flashbacks would work, but after thinking about it, hell yeah. It'd make one hell of a depressing war movie.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4639 on: June 30, 2016, 09:12:34 pm »

Was wondering how well the flashbacks would work, but after thinking about it, hell yeah. It'd make one hell of a depressing war movie.

Warhammer with Imperial Guard is mostly World War One in space
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4640 on: June 30, 2016, 09:28:08 pm »

Imperial Guard = Saving Private Ryan
Space Marines = Star Wars
Sisters of Battle = Kill Bill
Mechanicus = Primer
Inquisition = The Hunt for Red October
Orks = Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Tau = Star Trek
Eldar = Jupiter Ascending
Dark Eldar = Independence Day
Exodites = The Village
Chaos Space Marines = Heavy Metal
Lost and Damned = American Psycho
Chaos Daemons = Event Horizon
Tyranids = Starship Troopers
Necrons = Curse of the Mummy
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Tack

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4641 on: June 30, 2016, 09:34:17 pm »

That being said, Dabnett's early stuff really hasn't aged well.
Turn the first 3 GG novels into a movie, and undoubtedly you'll get people complaining about 'turning up lasguns' and 'making krak grenades from power packs'.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4642 on: June 30, 2016, 09:39:40 pm »

You have to be able to adjust lasgun power settings, it's a solar-powered laser. Lasers are inherently adjustable, including to the point that the power source explodes and/or lens melts.
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nenjin

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4643 on: June 30, 2016, 10:07:35 pm »


I maintain my position that you don't need to do this at all. The opening spiel tells you all you really need to know. Far future, star empire, only war. Everything else can be delivered organically or left to audience exploration after the fact. The first few films would need to softball uncontextualized references, but I think MCU proved you can get away with not being a bleeding expository wound. Just look at Civil War, it managed to do things like reference Cap's "No, you move" speech without being all wink wink about it and had a brutal fistfight between two of the most popular people in the series.

The only ultimate rule for fiction is "be interesting", audiences will eat this shit up as long as studios can get their heads out of their asses long enough to try something even remotely outside their comfort zone.

I dunno. Can you really communicate the depth of what the Emperor is about, the scope He takes on in the minds of the Imperium's people, with just the intro blurb? Really understanding what the Emperor is about is central to understanding half the actions and motivations of humans in the Imperium. I think you have to build on that with establishing shots and explain it through the story rather than like 30 minutes of unrelated characters doing a flashback to set it up.

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Honestly, I think our culture needs this. We've been shying a bit too close to the "media as morality plays" side of things in the past decade or so. You'd swear we were trying to resurrect the Hay's Code for how taboo villainy is. Wolf of Wall Street got away with it in a big way because: a) it followed rule zero and was interesting, but also b) because many people honestly dream of that life, even if they had to be evil to achieve it.

I don't disagree with this. The problem is 40k hits so many themes that have real world analogs right now, it faces a risk of being labeled a lot of things by people who don't try to see anything redeeming in it. I want an unflinching 40k movie myself, but ya know, I'm not everyone.

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I think it can be done, 40k is no more an endorsement of fascism than Dune is.

Cmon, be honest here. Dune a) almost exclusively focuses on big characters, nobles, heirs of dynasties. It rarely depicts much of how the common man lives. Half of 40k is built on the misery of the common man and how the Imperium can arbitrarily do what it wants with their lives. Sure it has reasons and decent ones in the context of the universe (heresy = rebellion = chaos = warp rape.) But it really is a celebration of what a totalitarian state can do when it's got the permission of the populace to do so. Or as a friend of mine likes to put it "One guy in a Manufactorum he's worked in his whole life, carving an Imperial Aquila into bolt shell casings under bad light."
 
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People can come to understand that the Imperium most resembles a fascist state through osmosis, so long as it's not shoved in their face I think the risk of controversy is fairly low.

That comes down to the screen writer's ability to know how to present things. But again, you know...to me an unflinching 40k movie has to put the ugliness of the Imperium squarely in front of you at some point. It has to show how people are, ultimately, ok with the sacrifices and cruelties the Imperium calls for. The literature usually leaves it up to the reader whether or not they should feel bad about this stuff. A visual medium though has more ways to signal how you're supposed to feel about this stuff. For example: a shot of people living in an overcrowded, collapsing hab block as a group of space marines walk by. Do you a) play heroic, bracing music as they walk by and look at the most unfortunate of the Imperium's citizens, like these people look up to their saviors as the last line between them and total annihilation....or do you play some sad sack music to show what fighting to save humanity has ultimately done to it. Same scene, two very different interpretations of what they "mean" just based on the music you cue people with. Do you just omit a scene like that altogether, and sweep the scale of human suffering in the Imperium under the rug?

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Indeed, it is all the more tragic that the people of the Imperium are recognizably still carrying the spark of humanity in the face of all the horrible things to do to keep it, and how doomed they are anyway. The Imperium is evil because it oppresses it's people, but it's also good because it's kept humanity alive and (for certain values) free. People should be unsure of if they want to root for the Imperium, or for Chaos, or for alien slave cucks the Tau. That's part of why it's interesting.

Interesting maybe. But it can put it up there in the ranks of "why would I go see a movie just to feel bad" kind of things.

A good screen writer could figure all this shit out I think, and understand you need to demonstrate people's willingness to sacrifice for the Imperium as a noble as well as a tragic thing. Because that, heroism and survival are pretty much the only things that are cheer worthy in the dehumanizing, invasive, uncaring and intractable Imperium. A bad screen writer would do it hamfistedly and then maybe put the nail in its coffin by going way overboard on, I dunno, making too much out of a scene where someone get lobotomized and turned into a servitor.

That's why I think a CGI film is, so far, the most reasonable way to get to a full 40k movie. CGI is damn expensive now but it's got a fraction of all the logistical complexities a 40k movie done right demands. Unless you're keeping like an Imperial Guard movie in a really constrained setting like a war, you're in for shit tonnes of elaborate set designs, costumes, visual effects (like artificially increasing the size of human actors playing space marines) and probably more CGI just to fill in the gaps when you need that "epic shot" of hundreds of dudes or space marines and war machines and w/e. So much of 40k is out of the reach of practical effects that I'd rather see a super high quality CGI movie and have it all be unified, then a live movie with an epic fuck ton of CGI spliced in. It worked for Mad Max but I dunno if you could get away with it for 40k. Too many non-humans. Too many aliens and daemons. Too many fantastical war machines and gear and space ships. Too much dank gothicness. Doing it CGI mitigates the risk of a live action film to a large degree. We already have metric tons of kid friendly CGI that are super successful, it's time adults got in on the action.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 10:25:06 pm by nenjin »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4644 on: June 30, 2016, 10:12:51 pm »

People should be unsure of if they want to root for the Imperium, or for Chaos, or for alien slave cucks the Tau. That's part of why it's interesting.
Yesss. I look forward to the hypothetical movie coming out and convincing a bunch of people new to WH40K that Chaos are the good guys. :P
That's because Chaos are the good guys, slave of the Corpse-Emperor.  8)
I'm no slave to the corpse. I'll have your skull for implying so.
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KingofstarrySkies

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4645 on: June 30, 2016, 10:37:15 pm »

People should be unsure of if they want to root for the Imperium, or for Chaos, or for alien slave cucks the Tau. That's part of why it's interesting.
Yesss. I look forward to the hypothetical movie coming out and convincing a bunch of people new to WH40K that Chaos are the good guys. :P
That's because Chaos are the good guys, slave of the Corpse-Emperor.  8)
I'm no slave to the corpse. I'll have your skull for implying so.
maybe y'all should just shut up and embrace the greater good for a change
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BlackHeartKabal

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4646 on: June 30, 2016, 10:44:42 pm »

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4647 on: June 30, 2016, 10:50:16 pm »

I dunno. Can you really communicate the depth of what the Emperor is about, the scope He takes on in the minds of the Imperium's people, with just the intro blurb? I think you have to build on that with establishing shots and explain it through the story rather than like 30 minutes of unrelated characters doing a flashback to set it up.
For many 40k film concepts, you don't need to do a whole lot. It's easy to establish that the God-Emperor is the sole deity of the Imperium and humanity, that he once walked amongst men, and that he ascended the Golden Throne on Terra to guide us. It's missing a lot of the Emperor's real story, but that's arguably a good thing. If the film is from the perspective of the Imperium's people, then that's all the context you need at first. It provides an introduction that lets you add in more and more of the real story, going from loyal Imperials to the Chaos side of the story to eventually a Horus Heresy series of films, if we're discussing a hypothetical Warhammer Cinematic Universe.

Let's take Saving Guardsman Rhyan as an example. You have the Only War speech at the start, which describes the Emperor as an undying guide to humanity on the Golden Throne. The audience doesn't know what that means, but it sets up some things. The Emperor is immortal. The Emperor is fed the souls of humans to remain immortal. The Emperor guides humanity.

Later on, we have Guardsmen listening to a sermon, which introduces the phrase The Emperor Protects and establishes that yes, the Guardsmen definitely think of this guy as a god who will save their souls after their inevitable deaths in His service. It shows that the Emperor apparently looks like an imposing, but fairly normal human man through an altar statue. This counters the pondering that if the Emperor eats human souls that he's some kind of inhuman abomination, and shows that the Emperor is something human-esq at the very least.

Later still, we have one of the Guardsmen (the pious one) get shot by a heretic but is saved from death when one fateful stubber round bounces off his Aquila, maybe even ricocheting and killing the shooter. Pious Guardsman gleefully insists that the Emperor saved him, and is all the more dedicated to the mission because it proves saving Rhyan is the Emperor's will. There's nothing physically impossible about what happened; certainly it wouldn't be the first time someone was killed by their own bullet ricocheting...but it is admittedly unlikely in the extreme, and makes one wonder if the Emperor really is watching. For maximum ponder, show Pious Guardsman easily winning at cards no matter how bad the draw, in order to imply from later film's context that he might be a latent psyker.

Once Rhyon has been saved and almost everyone is dead, he and the survivor dedicate them by carving their names into a Shrine of the Emperor's Martyrs. Turns out they were sent to save Rhyon in the first place because he possessed a family heirloom that was of some interest to the Inquisition. It's a little thing, doesn't really seem to have any actual function, and Rhyon lost in in the climactic battle against the heretic baneblade. They're trying to avoid giving the Acolyte the bad news, only for Rhyon to find the thing in his pocket after all, and hands it over. Looming shot of the statue of the Emperor. Credits.
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Cmon, be honest here. Dune a) almost exclusively focuses on big characters, nobles, heirs of dynasties. It rarely depicts much of how the common man lives. Half of 40k is built on the misery of the common man and how the Imperium can arbitrarily do what it wants with their lives. Sure it has reasons and decent ones in the context of the universe (heresy = rebellion = chaos = warp rape.) But it really is a celebration of what a totalitarian state can do when it's got the permission of the populace to do so. Or as a friend of mine likes to put it "One guy in a Manufactorum he's worked in his whole life, carving an Imperial Aquila into bolt shell casings under bad light."
But that's not really what 40k is about, no more than 1984 is about the life and times of proles in Oceania. All that shit is happening, but it isn't really what's important to the story. What's important to the story is fighting aliens, heretics, and traitors. Or finding your way through the political machinations of the Imperium. Or exploration beyond it's borders for profit and more profit. The slavery and dehumanization angle has it's place, but it's as the foundation of a Chaos film.
 
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For example: a shot of people living in an overcrowded, collapsing hab block as a group of space marines walk by. Do you a) play heroic, bracing music as they walk by and look at the most unfortunate of the Imperium's citizens, like these people look up to their saviors as the last line between them and total annihilation....or do you play some sad sack music to show what fighting to save humanity has ultimately done to it. Same scene, to very different interpretations of what they mean just based on the music you cue people with. Do you just omit a scene like that altogether, and sweep the scale of human suffering in the Imperium under the rug?
It all depends on the film's context. In We Were Astartes you play uplifting music and show how much the Space Marines are the heroes of all humanity. In Wolf of Wall Hive you show a sneering noble who believes they know where the real benefits of the Imperium go, to them. And in C for Chaos you play disturbing, angry music as a downtrodden orphan looks on with hate in their eyes.
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Interesting maybe. But it can put it up there in the ranks of "why would go I see a movie just to feel bad" kind of things.

A good screen writer could figure all this shit out I think, and understand you need to demonstrate people's willingness to sacrifice for the Imperium as a noble as well as a tragic thing. Because that, heroism and survival are pretty much the only things that are cheer worthy in the dehumanizing, invasive, uncaring and intractable Imperium. A bad screen writer would do it hamfistedly and then maybe put the nail in its coffin by going way overboard on, I dunno, making too much out of a scene where someone get lobotomized and turned into a servitor.
There's a juxtoposition, and from a certain viewpoint it isn't all feelbad. I forget which one it was, but one of the big 40k writers said "In the grim darkness of the far future, there's more than only war. Real people live there too." That's always been the interpretation of the Imperium I liked best. People have found meaningful lives in horrid dictatorships and downtrodden societies. I think that's a part of modern western conceit, that you need democracy and air conditioning to be happy, otherwise everything is shit. Truth is, most people find a way to adapt, and I genuinely think humans could adapt to a society like the Imperium's.

Sure, they're all going to get eaten by Tyranids in the end, but then again we're all actually going to die now. It doesn't mean you can't carve out something in the interim. If praising the Emperor and burning heretics makes you happy, then that's worthwhile. If you can manage a hard-knock life in the Hive, that's worth while. If you can bayonet some fucking Tau bastard to death, laughing as he drenches you in his stupid fucking blue alien blood and spasms in suffering knowing he'll never again see his sick brood of equally damned xenos spawn and their Throne-damned race traitor "Guevessa" allies-

Got away from me there. Point is, there is good in the Imperium. There has to be. You can't have grimdark without it, and yet, from a certain point of view, that also makes grimdark bearable.
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nenjin

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4648 on: June 30, 2016, 11:10:40 pm »

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But that's not really what 40k is about, no more than 1984 is about the life and times of proles in Oceania. All that shit is happening, but it isn't really what's important to the story. What's important to the story is fighting aliens, heretics, and traitors. Or finding your way through the political machinations of the Imperium. Or exploration beyond it's borders for profit and more profit. The slavery and dehumanization angle has it's place, but it's as the foundation of a Chaos film.

You can't fight aliens without ammo. You can't have ammo to feed a billion strong army without wrecking hundreds of worlds. You can't wreck hundreds of worlds without trashing the lives of millions upon millions of people. And on down the line. That's the take home lesson of 40k to me, everything has a cost. Can't fly a space ship without a couple thousand poor bastards down in the under decks slaving away in darkness emptying out the bilge and what not. Sure there's lots of other themes present in 40k than what I mentioned and some of them are totally rad (like I'd love a Rogue Trader movie.) But everything has a price in 40k. Shit the most depressing me thing to me to read is that sending a simple telepathic message is essentially killing someone every time they do it on some small level. Sacrifice is the foundation theme of everything Imperial, whether it's willing or not. To me a film that couldn't acknowledge that would be pulling punches for the sake of not horrifying/depressing the audience. Like, for me, that scene in the first Matrix where you realize the vast scope of what's been done to humanity is where the film really grabbed my attention, that it really built a world and an overarching idea for the narrative to rest on. I think 40k movies have to achieve the same thing. A demonstration that convinces the audience that, whatever may suck about the Imperium, in the end, it's necessary for it to survive.

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It all depends on the film's context. In We Were Astartes you play uplifting music and show how much the Space Marines are the heroes of all humanity. In Wolf of Wall Hive you show a sneering noble who believes they know where the real benefits of the Imperium go, to them. And in C for Chaos you play disturbing, angry music as a downtrodden orphan looks on with hate in their eyes.

Slow down tiger, you gotta have one movie before you can have a movie franchise :P As lower cost films it'd be possible I think to do different styles of 40k. But after waiting this long for a 40k movie, I think fans at least expect the first one to be a tone setter.

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There's a juxtoposition, and from a certain viewpoint it isn't all feelbad. I forget which one it was, but one of the big 40k writers said "In the grim darkness of the far future, there's more than only war. Real people live there too." That's always been the interpretation of the Imperium I liked best. People have found meaningful lives in horrid dictatorships and downtrodden societies. I think that's a part of modern western conceit, that you need democracy and air conditioning to be happy, otherwise everything is shit. Truth is, most people find a way to adapt, and I genuinely think humans could adapt to a society like the Imperium's.

Yeah but it's a movie about 40k after all. The "real people live there too" is to provide some gut-wrenching context before all their shit gets wrekt by aliens, chaos or the Imperium itself. Graham Mcneil and Abnett are good at normalizing certain parts of 40k so it has some variety to it. I can't say the same for a lot of other authors. And I've never read a story that was like "introduce man with normal life. Subject mans to [typically 40k shit.] Mans overcomes it and goes back to its business." To me the fact normal people live in the Imperium too is incidental. They're only normal up until the moment they are put in a story, and then their lives are turned to shit and irrevocably changed forever.

40k asks you accept that people can get along under really harsh conditions and maybe even find some happiness...but again....is that something people other than 40k fans will get into? A movie that essentially says "hey your life is pretty good because it ain't being lived in the 40k universe." Maybe that's the takehome feels from a lot of movies like 28 Days Later or Volcano or whatever. But most of those have a "and then the threat was dealt with and people got on with their lives." And that is not what 40k is about.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 11:12:32 pm by nenjin »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Warhammer 40K discussion thread: Disorder Vacuum Seamen.
« Reply #4649 on: June 30, 2016, 11:18:49 pm »

Part of an Imperium film is getting the audience into an Imperium mindset, and that mindset is "the survival of humanity is what comes first, praise the Emperor". You don't have to pull punches but you should contextualize in a way that doesn't bother with moral judgement, that'll kill any 40k film. Yeah, from a universalist standpoint it sucks that poor people in the Imperium are basically slaves, and that's basically 99% of humanity. However, the audience should see that and not care, much like the viewpoint characters don't care. It's the Emperor's will.

They don't have to live normal lives and then go back to them in the end, they shouldn't live normal lives in the first place. Or rather, lives that are normal for fortunate people living forty thousand years in the future, which is some weird shit by comparison. After all, a lot of 40k protagonists are villains by moral judgement standards, so them going on with their lives is a victory for grimdark. "And then the Rogue Trader orbitally bombarded the lost colony until they gave up their children as servants." "And then the traitors of the world were all executed, their blood and bones forming roads of judgement between every hive of Ithicae VII." "And then the rebels successfully summoned the angels of the true gods of the Warp to enlighten them." Etc.

I'm keeping C for Chaos though, that one works.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 11:21:28 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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