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[MetalSlimeHunt]

By the way, I cant understand are alpha legionares heretics or they are actually fighting war for imperium, but in the way, which is hard to understand?

The Alpha Legion are definitely uncertain double traitors. It doesn't help that they have both two Primarchs and make extremely heavy use of cultists compared to marines. Possibilities:

A. The Alpha Legion are just traitors who like to confuse Imperials by shouting about the Emperor.

B. The Alpha Legion were originally double traitors but became corrupted by Chaos over the course of the Long War.

C. The Alpha Legion are like reverse Dark Angels;  a crunchy loyalist center surrounded by chocolate heresy.

D. The Alpha Legion are actually two legions, one lead by Alpharius and Omegeon each, one traitor and one loyalist.

E. The Alpha Legion aren't Chaotic, but they are renegades intentionally bringing about the extinction of humanity in order to permanently kill Chaos with the backlash.

F. The Alpha Legion are 100% totally and completely loyal to the Emperor and humanity, and literally everything they've ever done to the contrary has been in service of that greater purpose.

G. The Alpha Legion don't really have organized leadership and are broken into warbands like the World Eaters, but this isn't public knowledge.

H. Other.

Also after checking up on heretical legions, it seems, like emperor partially  engineered horus heresy to be something like thunder warriors purging, as nearly all rioting legions were not that awesome/ too insane to be useful after the ending of great crusade.

There isn't a lot of evidence to suggest this is true. While Emps was beyond dickish and absolutely unwilling to take council from anyone, he by all accounts did seem to love the Primarchs as his own sons. The issue of what to do after the Great Crusade was actually being partially addressed by Rowboat Girlyman, who started getting Ultras into the arts and statecraft so they could retire once the wars were over.

[Kot]

Well, in theory, full understanding of the warp is possible, if one manages to convince eldar to let him into black with  some good argument or eloquence of bolter fire.

Yeah, good luck trying to get into Black Library. Nobody ever gets inside forcefully, it would proably take whole Crusade worth of bolter fire to try that and still you wouldn't proably get out.

By the way, I cant understand are alpha legionares heretics or they are actually fighting war for imperium, but in the way, which is hard to understand?

Alpha Legion is... weird... but actually, we know absolutely nothing about the Alpha Legion or their members. Sure, there are a lot of information about them around, but none of this is solid and, as we know that the Alpha Legion are sneaky as fuck, and are properly getting their shit done without anyone noticing it. So, they could be heretics, crypto-loyalists or even represent only themselves, not Chaos or Imperium. The last theory is actually pretty solid, considering that Alpharius and Omegon were told by The Cabal that Chaos victory in HH would mean end of humanity but eventually, end of Chaos, and the human victory would mean chaos surviving and winning in the long run. There is a lot of other stuff about it, like theory that first Grand Master of Grey Knights was either Alpharius or Omegon and that they were effectively fighting against each other (in secret tho, as always), which in end might mean that Alpha Legion is BOTH heretic and loyalist. Or, they might be working together to achieve exactly what is happening - a stalemate. The third option.

Also after checking up on heretical legions, it seems, like emperor partially  engineered horus heresy to be something like thunder warriors purging, as nearly all rioting legions were not that awesome/ too insane to be useful after the ending of great crusade.

Space Furries disagree.

[miauw62]

Alpha Legion shenanigans reeks of Tzeentch to me :V

[Kot]

Considering they fight against basically everything, including other Chaotic forces, it reeks more of Cegorach.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Except that Cegorach is Tzeentch, Khaine is Khorne, and Isha is Nurgle.

Besides, fighting everything is Malal's field.

[Kot]

They're not... the same. If anything, they're Eldar exclusive Chaos Gods (as in, similar warp phenomena) at best. Not to mention that Eldar had shittons more of actual gods before, they just all got skullfucked and killed by Slannesh. Malal is more of "lel randumb" god, and Alpha Legion is fighting everything, but in the "JUST AS PLANNED" fashion, not "hue get rekt" trolling fashion. This is why Cegorah fits them better than Tzzentch, since he is somewhere in between, and is basically the only entity they could turn to when faced with the "Humanity or Chaos" problem. And he is exactly the kind of guy who could come with the third option instead of the two "divined" by The Cabal, and he is one of few beings that are "above" farseeing, which explains why they didin't thought of it.
EDIT:
Not to mention that Eldars are bloody failures because they think that one of scenarios they farsee must happen, and not think of that, maybe, they're just fucking bad at it and there are other options.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There's plenty of reason to think they might be the same, now at least if not before. Khaine as Khorne is obvious, plenty of people believe in that. Both Isha and Cegorach act much like their Chaos God counterparts as well. Beyond the naming symmetry, Cegorach is absolutely "just as planned" in action and Isha comforts the dying. Sound familiar? They've totally at least ended up fusing natures with the Chaos Gods in the wake of Slannesh, which is probably why they're the only survivors. The other stories about them surviving by being broken, hiding in the webway, and stolen by Nurgle respectively are just what the Eldar tell themselves.

Malal isn't "lel randumb" at all, he represents both the self-destructive tendency of Chaos and the principle of justice. "The moral arc of the universe is long" and all that, that's Malal incarnate. Of course, being 40k that justice takes an...unorthodox form. That's why he totally fits with the Alpha Legion. They may not know it themselves, but the actions they take strengthen Malal if they really are doing the vast majority of things they might be doing, including the idea that they seek an eternal stalemate between humanity and chaos.

[Hanslanda]

I love you all, never change. MetalSlimeHunt is winning all my Headcanon, btw.

[Kot]

There's plenty of reason to think they might be the same, now at least if not before. Khaine as Khorne is obvious, plenty of people believe in that. Both Isha and Cegorach act much like their Chaos God counterparts as well. Beyond the naming symmetry, Cegorach is absolutely "just as planned" in action and Isha comforts the dying. Sound familiar? They've totally at least ended up fusing natures with the Chaos Gods in the wake of Slannesh, which is probably why they're the only survivors. The other stories about them surviving by being broken, hiding in the webway, and stolen by Nurgle respectively are just what the Eldar tell themselves.

The problem lies in the fact they're not exactly acting the same. Isha comforts the dying by healing them and generally being nice godness that actually cares instead of, you know, fat creepy bastard that enjoys you dying in most horrible ways imaginable for the sake of it, Khaine is indeed the angry one, but you could compare him to berserk as he's actually pretty... sane when he's not fighting, while Khorne is mostly BURN! MAIM! KILL! to the point that he's not exactly giving a shit about honour and mercy anymore. Cegorach is a massive dick but he's more of a trickster who ultimately wants the good of the Eldar than decieving faggot the Tzzentch is. They're basically the better versions of Chaos Gods if anything, which could possibly mean:
A) The good emotions were actually supposed to go to them, so they're the better counterparts of Chaos Gods.
B) They're Eldar exclusive gods, which kinds of explains why none of the other Chaos Gods except Slannesh appear to give a single shit about Eldar.
C) There was a hint in older fluff that Khaela Mensha Khaine was actuall an independent "shard" of Khorne, so they might be just that, independent versions of the ultimately the same entites. Which doesn't mean they're the same (which is kind of out of question anyway, as they manifested at the same time (you could say they were just Chaos Gods disguised as Eldar Gods but... Khorne and disguises? Yeah, no) as Chaos Gods) and Eldar just pretend to think they're something different.
There's also the whole Ynnead deal as he's kind of complete inversion of Slannesh, so least to say it's complicated.

Malal isn't "lel randumb" at all, he represents both the self-destructive tendency of Chaos and the principle of justice. "The moral arc of the universe is long" and all that, that's Malal incarnate. Of course, being 40k that justice takes an...unorthodox form. That's why he totally fits with the Alpha Legion. They may not know it themselves, but the actions they take strengthen Malal if they really are doing the vast majority of things they might be doing, including the idea that they seek an eternal stalemate between humanity and chaos.

Malal is basically "lel randumb" in the sense he's unpredictable. He's the God of anarchy and contradictions, paradoxes, to the point that he doesn't even exist and yet exists in the same time. Malal is basically the Old Man Henderson. The Alpha Legion does strengthen Malal, as doing anything strengthens some Chaos God, but they aren't followers of him in any way. Hard to explain, but... well, they're not Sons of Malice (which, in turn, might be the XI Legion but that's completly different story).

[Xantalos]

It's better to think of Chaos Gods as spectrums rather than beings. Khorne is all of the 'anger' spectrum, and thus Khaine to some extent is Khorne, but not really. He's part of the spectrum of Khorne, but because he has his own individual story, he has his own identity and goals separate from that of Khorne. Same with the others, I'd imagine.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Isha comforts the dying by healing them and generally being nice godness that actually cares instead of, you know, fat creepy bastard that enjoys you dying in most horrible ways imaginable for the sake of it

You don't see the symmetry between being the caretaker goddess and Nurgle's love for all life? Nurgle doesn't love suffering, that's Slanneshi, he's just a very non-anthropocentric nature god. Both he and Isha represent different sides of the coin on the circle of life and death, but they're inherently linked by it.

Khaine is indeed the angry one, but you could compare him to berserk as he's actually pretty... sane when he's not fighting, while Khorne is mostly BURN! MAIM! KILL! to the point that he's not exactly giving a shit about honour and mercy anymore.

I think that's a less than accurate portrayal of both. Khaine's days of relative sanity are long over, the Young King always emerges from the fire shouting "BURN MAIM KILL" themselves. There are also still those who interpret Khorne through the aspects of honor and courage. Not many, admittedly, but those aspects exist and are worshiped by some.

There's also the whole Ynnead deal as he's kind of complete inversion of Slannesh, so least to say it's complicated.

Now that is a fascinating point. I wonder what kind of interaction it would have with the Nightbringer...

Malal is basically "lel randumb" in the sense he's unpredictable. He's the God of anarchy and contradictions, paradoxes, to the point that he doesn't even exist and yet exists in the same time. Malal is basically the Old Man Henderson. The Alpha Legion does strengthen Malal, as doing anything strengthens some Chaos God, but they aren't followers of him in any way. Hard to explain, but... well, they're not Sons of Malice (which, in turn, might be the XI Legion but that's completly different story).

One needs not speak the name to commit the act. True, intentional worship seems to be better for warp entities, but not strictly required. Nobody knew the name of Slannesh until that fateful day.

It's better to think of Chaos Gods as spectrums rather than beings. Khorne is all of the 'anger' spectrum, and thus Khaine to some extent is Khorne, but not really. He's part of the spectrum of Khorne, but because he has his own individual story, he has his own identity and goals separate from that of Khorne. Same with the others, I'd imagine.

This is also basically what Greater Daemons are. It's all very Exalted when you get into the hierarchy of daemonic representation.

[Andres]

I'm of the persuasion that the Eldar gods are beings entirely separate to the Chaos gods. Where the Chaos "gods" are merely powerful tulpas (similar to how the Emperor is merely a powerful human), the Eldar gods are actual, proper gods. Where they came from or what exactly there nature is is a mystery, but in personality and actions they are clearly more than just the incarnate emotions of the galaxy's denizens.

At the very least, Ynnead's (future) existence as a Warp god that wasn't born of emotions gives credence to the idea that the Eldar gods are not Chaos gods.

[Kot]

Isha comforts the dying by healing them and generally being nice godness that actually cares instead of, you know, fat creepy bastard that enjoys you dying in most horrible ways imaginable for the sake of it

You don't see the symmetry between being the caretaker goddess and Nurgle's love for all life? Nurgle doesn't love suffering, that's Slanneshi, he's just a very non-anthropocentric nature god. Both he and Isha represent different sides of the coin on the circle of life and death, but they're inherently linked by it.

Khaine is indeed the angry one, but you could compare him to berserk as he's actually pretty... sane when he's not fighting, while Khorne is mostly BURN! MAIM! KILL! to the point that he's not exactly giving a shit about honour and mercy anymore.

I think that's a less than accurate portrayal of both. Khaine's days of relative sanity are long over, the Young King always emerges from the fire shouting "BURN MAIM KILL" themselves. There are also still those who interpret Khorne through the aspects of honor and courage. Not many, admittedly, but those aspects exist and are worshiped by some.

You didin't read what I wrote before at all, apparently. Few posts before I literally mentioned the same thing.
As for the Nurgle - he loves stuff so hard that he literally doesn't give a shit about what it feels, he just wants it to die. Though, I have to admit, he does have good intentions. Sort of.
As for the Khaine and Khorne - Avatar doesn't exactly have time to be sane since he's created ("awoken"?) only when he's needed, and that is when there is war. And all in all, it's easy to expect him trying to outangry Khorne, as both he and Slannesh fucked him over a lot.

There's also the whole Ynnead deal as he's kind of complete inversion of Slannesh, so least to say it's complicated.

Now that is a fascinating point. I wonder what kind of interaction it would have with the Nightbringer...

Malal is basically "lel randumb" in the sense he's unpredictable. He's the God of anarchy and contradictions, paradoxes, to the point that he doesn't even exist and yet exists in the same time. Malal is basically the Old Man Henderson. The Alpha Legion does strengthen Malal, as doing anything strengthens some Chaos God, but they aren't followers of him in any way. Hard to explain, but... well, they're not Sons of Malice (which, in turn, might be the XI Legion but that's completly different story).

One needs not speak the name to commit the act. True, intentional worship seems to be better for warp entities, but not strictly required. Nobody knew the name of Slannesh until that fateful day.

Honestly speaking the Alpha Legion might as well don't worship (Chaos Gods) or follow (Big E) anyone at all and just work for themselves, ocassionaly striking deals with each.

It's better to think of Chaos Gods as spectrums rather than beings. Khorne is all of the 'anger' spectrum, and thus Khaine to some extent is Khorne, but not really. He's part of the spectrum of Khorne, but because he has his own individual story, he has his own identity and goals separate from that of Khorne. Same with the others, I'd imagine.

This is also basically what Greater Daemons are. It's all very Exalted when you get into the hierarchy of daemonic representation.

So the Eldar Gods are reduced to mere Greater Deamons? That's interesting.

I'm of the persuasion that the Eldar gods are beings entirely separate to the Chaos gods. Where the Chaos "gods" are merely powerful tulpas (similar to how the Emperor is merely a powerful human), the Eldar gods are actual, proper gods. Where they came from or what exactly there nature is is a mystery, but in personality and actions they are clearly more than just the incarnate emotions of the galaxy's denizens.

At the very least, Ynnead's (future) existence as a Warp god that wasn't born of emotions gives credence to the idea that the Eldar gods are not Chaos gods.

There's a theory that they are the few Old Ones that survived War In Heaven and escaped to Warp to be ultimately turned into Gods due to it's... well, warping nature and possible Eldar worship of them. This way powerful general turns into war god, scientist into smith god, their leader into the "supreme" god and so on. This may also explain that the Lileath is daugher of Isha and Kurnous and the fact she foresaw that Khaine will one day be shattered by Eldar.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So the Eldar Gods are reduced to mere Greater Deamons? That's interesting.

Obviously they are not literally the same as Greater Daemons, but if they've become fused with the Chaos Gods then they're of a similar structure. All warp entities under the umbrella of alignment are essentially a fraction of the whole god. So the Eldar Gods would be huge, distinct, and indigestible chunks of Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, but not as large as all of the other Cultists, Spawn, Lesser, Greater, Princes, and Avatar Daemons together. In Exalted terms, a lot like a Third Circle Demon, capable of independent thought and action but of an essence tied back to the whole god.

[Kot]

What if they're not the definitive "whole" but rather part of the alingment themselves? The Gods of Chaos I mean.