Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Tiruin]

Whether bad or not, you should give both with an open mind and not be that judgemental given your experience. :p

[GreatWyrmGold]

A quick note on the OP:

It's contradictory. "Townies wouldn't be concerned about being killed," but if that happens, "you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well." Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.
Mind, I'm not criticizing you, MOWE, the guide is comprehensive. It's a bit like if I saw a well-written book on astrology; the author's good, but the subject matter is highly questionable. Which is my point. Don't put too much faith in scumtells.

[Tiruin]

 
No, it's not contradictory. Analyze the context.
You're bloody generalizing. Again.

"Townies wouldn't be concerned about being killed," but if that happens, "you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

^ has context. Stuff which you aren't detailing.

Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.

^ has even MORE context. Which you have pretty much an easy time generalizing and not detailing.

Sometimes I seriously wonder if there's something with you on that aspect of your attitude :/

[GreatWyrmGold]

"Townies wouldn't be concerned about being killed," but if that happens, "you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

^ has context. Stuff which you aren't detailing.

[Reacting to people wanting you lynched] implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

...

About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

Sorry, I don't see it. In one it's saying that [X] is a scumtell because good townies don't care much if they're lynched, and in the other it's saying that a good townie tries not to be lynched.
Is it theoretically possible for both facts to be true? Yes. Is it possible for the reasoning behind them to both be valid? No. Hence, I'd argue that it's you who's missing the context.

Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.

^ has even MORE context. Which you have pretty much an easy time generalizing and not detailing.
Sometimes I seriously wonder if there's something with you on that aspect of your attitude :/

What context am I missing?
1. "Trying too hard to not look like mafia" is a scumtell. Therefore, if someone gives no scumtells, he's a scum because he's trying too hard not to look like a scum.
2. A scum would logically try not to leave many signs. Therefore, a real scum would more likely have only a couple scumtells visible rather than a plethora. Hence, someone who gives a small number of scumtells is also a scum.
3. Let's not get into how good townies would also want to avoid being mistaken for scum, for both personal and team reasons. Unless, of course, you buy the "only mafia would fight against being lynched" bit...

[Tiruin]

Sorry, I don't see it. In one it's saying that [X] is a scumtell because good townies don't care much if they're lynched, and in the other it's saying that a good townie tries not to be lynched.
Is it theoretically possible for both facts to be true? Yes. Is it possible for the reasoning behind them to both be valid? No. Hence, I'd argue that it's you who's missing the context.

...I must introduce you to rhetoric.
Because you are too much of a generalist, sir.
Tiruin as playing IC, IN.
Meaning: Those things require context to be understood, and at a glance may look contradictory, but are not. It's like that Astrology thing you're criticizing. The subject is highly questionable due to you/your mind not having been exposed to it, but rather only the superficial articles about it via crude observation.

There's a 'because' behind all those reasons. Good townies don't mind being lynched because they'd be scumhunting as their goal--if they get lynched, they try their best in getting as much info from their pursuers that they can, and mostly this overturns the lynch.
Your "a good townie tries not to be lynched" is badly paraphrased from the original statement.

you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

Which is where I wonder if something is up on your side :/
Your concept of 'loss' ignores the gain by said loss. Your concept of loss focuses purely only that the member is dead, and not what the member has done--the generalization to your statements and the objective conclusion afterwards which I'm poking.

Said quote seems to be taken out of context from a rather distinct area there. Mind to quote it?

Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.

^ has even MORE context. Which you have pretty much an easy time generalizing and not detailing.
Sometimes I seriously wonder if there's something with you on that aspect of your attitude :/

What context am I missing?
1. "Trying too hard to not look like mafia" is a scumtell. Therefore, if someone gives no scumtells, he's a scum because he's trying too hard not to look like a scum.
2. A scum would logically try not to leave many signs. Therefore, a real scum would more likely have only a couple scumtells visible rather than a plethora. Hence, someone who gives a small number of scumtells is also a scum.
3. Let's not get into how good townies would also want to avoid being mistaken for scum, for both personal and team reasons. Unless, of course, you buy the "only mafia would fight against being lynched" bit...

What context? That you may be taking many things a bit too objectively, for one.
1. Prove. Note: "Trying" = actively doing. As in, it can be sensed. Your example does NOT (@orange) take that up. This requires context to specify.
2. Prove. There are underlying reasons why a scumtell is a scumtell and not a towntell or a newbietell.
3. Prove. Generally everyone will fight the lynch, but also will fight according to their principle.
All of such are guides and not laws. :V

...What happened in your BM Sprint!? You should be acquainted with the game already due to it being a BM! (though fast paced :v)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Then introduce me to rhetoric.


If it's all subjective anyways, or the important bits at least, what's the point? Especially since, as I've repeatedly pointed out, everything can be a scumtell.
1. OP, "Common Scumtells," "Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie"
2. Common sense. Scum don't want townies to know they're scum. I swear, next I'll be needing to prove that scum want to win.
3. OP, "FAQ," "People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?"

[Tiruin]

*points at edit*

If it's all subjective anyways, or the important bits at least, what's the point? Especially since, as I've repeatedly pointed out, everything can be a scumtell.

Generalizing again!~~

[GreatWyrmGold]

*points at edit*

Bit of a pain.

If it's all subjective anyways, or the important bits at least, what's the point? Especially since, as I've repeatedly pointed out, everything can be a scumtell.

Generalizing again!~~

We're talking about a general guide. The points made within are meant to be generalized.

Meaning: Those things require context to be understood, and at a glance may look contradictory, but are not. It's like that Astrology thing you're criticizing. The subject is highly questionable due to you/your mind not having been exposed to it, but rather only the superficial articles about it via crude observation.

Alright, first off, that was an analogy, and do you honestly believe in astrology?
Second off, what "context" do I need? I hate always comparing people I'm arguing with to fundies, but it's reminding me of people responding to my complaints about the Bible being contradictory or the actions of saints being horrible by simply saying I'm taking them out of context...without adequately explaining what context I'm missing.

There's a 'because' behind all those reasons. Good townies don't mind being lynched because they'd be scumhunting as their goal--if they get lynched, they try their best in getting as much info from their pursuers that they can, and mostly this overturns the lynch.
Your "a good townie tries not to be lynched" is badly paraphrased from the original statement.

How would you paraphrase it?
And, as I've noted, my problem is with the reasoning. The conclusions aren't contradictory, the reasoning is.

Your concept of 'loss' ignores the gain by said loss. Your concept of loss focuses purely only that the member is dead, and not what the member has done--the generalization to your statements and the objective conclusion afterwards which I'm poking.

The OP doesn't make any considerations for that. And besides, I'm still confused...how can a mislynch help the town?

Said quote seems to be taken out of context from a rather distinct area there. Mind to quote it?

ctl-f, it's not that hard.
Second frequently asked question.

Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

I dunno about you, but when I read that, I see that as saying "you should try not to be lynched, because that will always hurt your team".

1. Prove. Note: "Trying" = actively doing. As in, it can be sensed. Your example does NOT (@orange) take that up. This requires context to specify.
2. Prove. There are underlying reasons why a scumtell is a scumtell and not a towntell or a newbietell.
3. Prove. Generally everyone will fight the lynch, but also will fight according to their principle.
All of such are guides and not laws. :V

1. Alright, how do you tell that someone's trying to hide their scumtells, as opposed to someone who just doesn't have them? Wouldn't the most logical way to hide them be to know what they are and not do them at all, rather than...I dunno, how are you supposed to hide scumtells in some other way?
2. So, either scum leave no scumtells, or a lot? There's no middle ground? B.S. Not to mention the idea that scum will give off a whole lot of scumtells is not only BS, it's BS that could easily lead to mislynches if the mafia doesn't but enough players, trying to find all the scumtells, finds a bunch of alleged scumtells in a random (probably town) player's posts.
3. How does the "principle" affect how they will fight? Do mafias' principles force them to bold their arguments or something?
Remember, we don't have telepathy, or even the ability to see each others' faces. All we have are text, text freely given and, if the player is a mafia, almost certainly carefully thought-out.

...What happened in your BM Sprint!? You should be acquainted with the game already due to it being a BM! (though fast paced :v)

You were there, weren't you? You saw what happened.

[Jack A T]

GreatWyrmGold:
On scumtells: You are right that scumtells do get dropped by townies.  There is a reason why we question people who do things that are odd for town to do, instead of just yelling out "LOOK SCUMTELL."  Good play involves the use of questions to help determine why players behave oddly.  In a full-length game like this, there is plenty of time to ask and answer questions.

Also, anyone who votes someone for not showing any odd behaviours (the Too Townie fallacy: "You look so town you must be scum") is a twit.  The "trying to hard" thing does not refer to a case where a player is not looking odd, but a case where the player is clearly trying to control their image (example: it's amazing how often people explicitly announce that they, say, don't want to vote someone because it would look scummy).

On town lynch avoidance: Townies are expected to defend themselves, and it is not scummy to do so.  They are not expected to get incredibly panicky under a few votes, but they are expected to defend themselves.  It is, after all, best to lynch the scum, not townies.

However, the death of a townie (when not at MYLO/LYLO) causes far less damage to the townteam than the death of a scumteam member causes to the scumteam.  In fact, lynching townies leaves information behind that can help determine who the scum is (this being why No Lynch at D1 is considered even less helpful than lynching a vanilla townie).  Excessive panic upon being attacked may be a sign of scumhood, and should be questioned.

PPE: How about we take this whole discussion to a separate thread?

[GreatWyrmGold]

How do you tell honest-mistake answers from mafia-coverup answers? Hope that the mafia give obviously flawed reasons?

Ah, so it only applies if the mafia are being obvious. Useful.

What's the boundary between "panicky" and "not panicky"? Wouldn't it logically depend on the personality of the actual player? Isn't all of this making it so subjective as to be almost useless?

Make another thread and I'll join it.

[Jack A T]

Starting the thread.

[RangerCado]

Switch my replacement In to an actual IN, I have time.

[Silthuri]

Alrighty! Game will start Monday to avoid the weekend drag.

[tn5421]

Confirming /pre-in

[GreatWyrmGold]

Out.