Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[pisskop]

Melee is important, even as a backup.  In the game's terms it may be possible to wall off and fort up; and thus shot all enemies, but melee is simplier, with less micro, less required resource, and overall better in tight quarters.  Sounds like its your preference to pew the pewpew.  Take a legendary meleedwarf with a shield and a legendary bowman and pit them.

Me, I usually keep a squad or two of metalclad xbows, a few part-time leather bowmen, and several meleedwarves.

[gritstone]

(Also, there was not such thing as steel plate in medieval times, the best armors was made in iron with a pellicule of steel on top of it. Pure steel would have made a terrible protection. Sorry for the nitpicking  )

I don't mind nitpicking... if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but I'm not pretending to be an expert, just give a basic impression

Indeed the real crossbows is a deadly weapon and it should remain deadly in DF. Maybe the rate of fire should be reduced. I once tried to reload a medieval crossbow and it's not easy since it involve bending the steel arc of the weapon. A crossbowman should not be able to shoot as fast as a bowman.

I wouldn't mind seeing crossbows become much harder to manufacture, and have their current position filled by selfbows with reduced power.  Create a tiered ranged weapon system, a bit like melee is tiered by metal properties.

[Zac]

Indeed the real crossbows is a deadly weapon and it should remain deadly in DF. Maybe the rate of fire should be reduced. I once tried to reload a medieval crossbow and it's not easy since it involve bending the steel arc of the weapon. A crossbowman should not be able to shoot as fast as a bowman.

I wouldn't mind seeing crossbows become much harder to manufacture, and have their current position filled by selfbows with reduced power.  Create a tiered ranged weapon system, a bit like melee is tiered by metal properties.

Not necessarily harder to make, but tiered yes. If you use only one log it mean that the arc is also made of wood. Wooden crossbows have existed and were quite powerfull, but definitely not able to pierce through plate armor.

[Loud Whispers]

You may not have to reload an axe, but have you never had them get damaged or destroyed in battle?

no?  does that occur in some mod i'm not aware of?

I

[Loud Whispers]

You may not have to reload an axe, but have you never had them get damaged or destroyed in battle?

no?  does that occur in some mod i'm not aware of?

It mostly occurs when Dwarves fall into places with magma, freezing water or some unreachable hellhole.

[GiglameshDespair]

Chances are the dwarf is lost with them, though ,so it would be out of the battle anyway. Same as if a xbow dorf does the same. Might be a little less likely for a xbow dorf, but still. I'm willing to bet that happens little enough it's not really a concern.

[Fen]

Melee units become terrifyingly powerful when they become more experienced, and don't suffer as poorly as ranged units when they're put out of their element- a legendary hammerdwarf will have many ranks in dodge and shield use, so they can survive a volley of ranged attacks while they close in for melee combat, but a marksdwarf typically doesn't have defensive skills to survive in melee combat against a similarly skilled melee weapon user.

It is worth noting, however, that marksdwarves are inherently better defensively due to the existence of fortifications, which allow them to fight while not being attacked except by other ranged units. That said, in my current fort we get a lot of ambushes on a fairly regular basis, and my most powerful dwarf with the most kills is a swordsdwarf, because she's simply been able to survive long enough to become an absolute monster in combat situations. The last elf ambush we had, she took about 1/3 of the kills, despite there being 23 other military dwarves fighting with her, 10 of which were marksdwarves.

TL;DR- Markswarves are really powerful compared to melee dwarves, especially in the early game, but are more likely to die if exposed in combat, which makes any melee dwarves who survive better combatants in the long run.

[Zac]

I think one part of the lack of usefulness of melee dwarves compared to ranged dwarves is the fact that in DF we alway are the defender and never actively attack anybody (well, exept the elves...). If in a future release our dwarves are allowed to bring the war to the enemy and besiege their sites, a bunch of adamantine-clad legendary badass will become a necessity for every self-respecting fortress.

[BoredVirulence]

Crossbows were extremely costly and difficult to make, not something a mere peasant could afford to buy or craft. The reason crossbows were anathematized by the pope and the crossbow makers and users threatened of excommunication was  the deadly power of the weapon. There is several reports of crossbow bolts piercing through armors, shields and helms and some of the best crossbows were even repported to be able to kill a charging armoured horse in a single shot.

There are 2 main benefits of a crossbow over a longbow. The a crossbowman is cheaper to train than a longbowman. With longbows, it takes several years to train for effective use, as well as a lot of effort to be able to fight the draw force of a longbow. With crossbows, the user only had to fight the draw strength for a moment, until it locks, and often there were ways to get a mechanical advantage to draw the crossbow, such as ratcheting mechanisms or the popular foot-hole so you could also use your legs to draw the string.

Crossbows could be made very powerful, but most weren't. Most were cheap and easy, and that's what made them useful, you could quickly conscript peasants, spend a week or two arming them with crossbows, and have a decent ranged force. A longbow used by a trained individual would always outpace the crossbowmen, but you could always get more crossbowmen.

To note the power of a crossbow against the power of platemail, the arbalest, which was a heavy crossbow and very powerful, came into use 1200 CE and certainly after. Use of heavy platemail dominated warfare around the 1500 CE. Platemail only declined when firearms made platemail worthless. Crossbows were heavily used even during the 15th and 16th centuries when platemail was dominant, but it wasn't because they rendered platemail useless. If anything powerful crossbows created a niche for exceptionally powerful armor to balance it, a balance that wasn't broken until firearms. Crossbows and longbows could still penetrate platemail, but it was mostly because of a lucky or well aimed shot.

The real problem with DF crossbows is that they aren't crossbows, they act like crossbows that shoot warhammers. The projectiles have too much momentum, and when they deflect the blunt damage often breaks or jams bones through the armor. I have no problem with bolts penetrating armor occasionally, but they don't, they do damage by being really heavy. Hence the broken arrow mod.

[Zac]

Maybe the "shooting warhammer" effect is due to the poor range of DF crossbow. If 1 DF tile= 3 real life cubic meters, then the 20 tile range of a DF crossbow is 60 real life meters. 60 meters is nothing for a crossbow, bow and crossbow can easily shoot something a few hundred meters away and still do damage (with a bit of luck or a lot of skill if you want to shoot your target, or a massive volley). So maybe they look op because we alway use them at point blank ?

[GiglameshDespair]

Looking online sources seem to vary if a longbow could penetrate plate. Yo quote from the 12th century:

... n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.

So yeah, longbows were pretty powerful.

[Button]

...
(Arrow attacks tend to pass right through.)
...

I have not observed this, so I am skeptical. The immense momentum of vanilla crossbows/bows easily causes animated corpses to collapse.

I've observed this loads of times. If it is a fresh, risen corpse, the bolts will hit and deal damage with no problems.

However, when you're dealing with skeletal undead, bolts mostly (85-95%) pass through dealing no damage and fill my combat logs with pages of just such a report. Of course, my marksdwarves are sub-legendary, so maybe their accuracy gets markedly better later on and it's not such a big deal. Someone else can answer that part better.

Exactly. It's not a common thing - undead don't rot while they're animate, so you pretty much only see this if you're unlucky/irresponsible in a reanimating biome or near a necro tower(s). Here's some incidences of this from my combat log. (Note: These were not consecutive in the combat log.)

The flying {polar bear bone bolt} strikes The polar bear hair in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying {silver bolt} strikes The Zolak's skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Vabok Taranalath's head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Minkot Loloktithleth's head in the head from behind, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Unib Sazirfoker's head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The dog partial skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Minkot Loloktithleth's head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({copper bolt}) strikes The gander partial skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Fikod Utaldastot's head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Usbu Aslotlulo's head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Estrur Usprakutsmob's partial skeleton in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({silver bolt}) strikes The blue peacock partial skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({silver bolt}) strikes The mongoose skeleton in the lower body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The Morul Kathillogem's head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The giant sparrow skeleton in the lower body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({copper bolt}) strikes The Dakost Togumdeduk's head in the head from the side, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({silver bolt}) strikes The wild boar sow partial skeleton in the lower body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({silver bolt}) strikes The Smunstu Dostngospzugstrux's partial skeleton in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The elf head in the head, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({silver bolt}) strikes The wild boar sow skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({iron bolt}) strikes The wild boar sow partial skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({copper bolt}) strikes The Rigoth Ingizkithin's head in the right cheek, but the attack passes right through!
The flying ({copper bolt}) strikes The Akgosmostod's skeleton in the upper body, but the attack passes right through!

[GavJ]

Tons of reasons:
1) Arrows don't go around corners. In twisty caverns or fortress halls, they suck. Your marksdwavres have to get right in somebody's face, and they can't defend themselves well enough to survive that.
2) As mentioned, some enemies need to be beheaded or bisected to die, which requires edged weapons usually.
3) Ammunition is a nonrenewable (metal) or slowly renewable (wood, bone) resource. Axe swings are much more renewable (only require insanely fast growing plump helmets to fuel the dwarf)
4) Melee usually leads to funnier stories and combat logs, and more respectable heroes.
5) Melee is a lot cheaper and easier to train up.
6) Less micromanagement in menus
7) The fact that enemies can't climb (soon to be changed) or dig or use siege towers, etc. makes it feel a little cheaty sometimes to rely too heavily on crossbows through fortifications. Whole army standing there, on the other side of an arrow loop made out of soap, and they are at a loss as to what to do until you shoot them all to death? Come on.  Melee is more realistic oftentimes.
Also contributing to non-realism of crossbows is that they can be operated and reloaded one-handed while running.

[pisskop]

What does assigning two crossbows do again?  Does it allow them to fire twice?

[GavJ]

I don't think dwarves can effectively dual wield anything yet, right? So they just wouldn't pick up the second one. Or maybe they'd hold it as an inert inventory item or something.